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Author Topic: Another 6/1 Restoration  (Read 121288 times)

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #150 on: September 13, 2016, 09:23:31 AM »
Hi Ed
Thanks. I have a Hoffberg wiring diagram somewhere but for some reason I remember that I didn't think it was for the alternator. I'll dig it out and have another look at it.
Apologies for my ignorance - but can you please elaborate a bit on the shunt transformer/rectifier to exciter configuration?

Definitely no grub screw...not on the key or anywhere else...and I had all the old paint stripped off... Really strange not to retain it somehow ???
Probably going to be a tough one to remove  :o


1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

EdDee

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #151 on: September 13, 2016, 11:40:49 AM »
Hi DS,

Effectively, the output AC is passed in series through the primary of a transformer (A heavy little bugger with primary leads about 2.5 to 3mm or so thick if I remember correctly)... The secondary of the transformer is rectified and applied to the fields to increase field strength as a load is applied to the output... There are a few wire-wound resistors to trim and balance the whole gubbins, but this is just the basics of how it operates.... I have heard, not verified though, that all of the Hoffberg's were up to 15KvA capable... The only thing that changed was the output transformer... The windings were identical in thickness and in number on all the 15KvA and below.... (Treat as hearsay until you can verify though...)

Keep it Sparkin'

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

38ac

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #152 on: September 13, 2016, 02:37:32 PM »
With no other means of retaining I would have to think that the pulley originally had a tapered gibb key in it?
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

broncodriver99

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #153 on: September 13, 2016, 03:32:29 PM »
From the pics it looks to me like that key and key way may be tapered. Have you put a mic on it to check? It may just be the picture but the rear looks slightly shallow compared to the the front, like the taper is in the shaft.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 03:39:20 PM by broncodriver99 »

Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #154 on: September 13, 2016, 04:57:46 PM »
As Butch and Bronco suggested, perhaps it does have a gib key, or at least a tapered key.
My startomatic generator pulley/flywheel is attached to the gen shaft by a gib key, though the key has the usual tab for removal.
Never tried to remove the key as I am using a PMG rather than the original starto gear.
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #155 on: September 14, 2016, 08:50:09 AM »
The mind still boggles with the way the pulley is mounted... I won't stress too much about that now though - I'll cross that bridge when the day arrives when I get to do the pulley change. I own some really big hammers...  ;D

I found the old Hoffberg wiring diagrams I had. Original pages turning yellow but they are very well preserved otherwise.

Click the mediafire links below to download the .pdf documents.
(The download screen is quite busy... Just aim for the big green DOWNLOAD button as shown in the screenshot below)


http://www.mediafire.com/download/u9rzyg6thvase1e/Hoffberg__AC_Wiring_DC_Charging.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/download/m07ub5gi9vmilgm/Hoffberg__Connections.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/download/g15tvsl33pr32xi/Hoffberg__Internal_Wiring.pdf

Here are screenshots to preview the diagrams:
There are two types of Hoffberg Alternators: The STG/WDG and the Series B
Huge Assumption: The one I have is not marked, but since it falls in the 2-5Kw range at 32-36 Volt DC, it must be a Series B

Notice the last note: "Hoffberg series 'B' and STG/WDG alternators are self regulating and do not require any external rheostats or regulators"  -- There must be something inside the alternator I can check to confirm this? Does this mean that I don't need an AVR?  ???







« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 10:39:58 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

EdDee

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #156 on: September 14, 2016, 02:54:54 PM »
Hey DS!

Thanks for the diagrams! Much appreciated!!

Interestingly, mine is a tad different with the transformer et al....

Give it a try sans regulator, just as it stands.... You never know, It might work a charm!

As to the pinouts in the box - S/S1 could be starting and C/C1 could be charging....(Going by a very old memory, a bit of guesswork and a bit of visual as to the gauge of wires connected...) The only thing I would be hesitant to try out would be the starting side of things, due to currents involved... Big/expensive smoke cloud if incorrect.... The rest of the connections are outputs, so, unless you load them, no current flowing, no smoke! Employ a volt meter once you get it spinning and take a look to see what they are doing....

Cheers
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #157 on: September 14, 2016, 05:01:36 PM »
I had, (but sold) a Stamford self regulating generator similar to the Hoffberg. No VR required. Never used the machine, so cannot comment about its operation. Some models had starter windings as well. Alas, not the case with mine, or I would not have sold it! These were high spec items, production stopped because they were costly to manufacture.

Apparently, Cummins bought the rights to Stamford, and so acquired all the documentation, even on no longer produced generators. An engineer at Cummins searched the archives, and was able to find the manual for these transformer controlled self regulating generators: even including the build sheet for the particular generator s/n that I had.

I do still have the PDF of the manual, some of the information may be relevant to the Hoffberg.

Anyone wanting a copy of this PDF for Stamford model D8 and D11 can PM me, i will forward it along.

Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #158 on: September 15, 2016, 09:22:15 AM »
Hey DS!

Thanks for the diagrams! Much appreciated!!

Interestingly, mine is a tad different with the transformer et al....

Give it a try sans regulator, just as it stands.... You never know, It might work a charm!

As to the pinouts in the box - S/S1 could be starting and C/C1 could be charging....(Going by a very old memory, a bit of guesswork and a bit of visual as to the gauge of wires connected...) The only thing I would be hesitant to try out would be the starting side of things, due to currents involved... Big/expensive smoke cloud if incorrect.... The rest of the connections are outputs, so, unless you load them, no current flowing, no smoke! Employ a volt meter once you get it spinning and take a look to see what they are doing....

Cheers
Ed
Pleasure Ed - I googled low and high and I couldn't find a thing on the Hoffbergs. I hope it's of use to you or someone else.
The coolant tank is connected and I'm almost ready to start. I know the AC leads work, but I've not checked voltage stability or the other pins yet. I'll play around a bit and report back. I agree with your pin-outs, but the multi-meter should confirm.

I had, (but sold) a Stamford self regulating generator similar to the Hoffberg. No VR required. Never used the machine, so cannot comment about its operation. Some models had starter windings as well. Alas, not the case with mine, or I would not have sold it! These were high spec items, production stopped because they were costly to manufacture.

Apparently, Cummins bought the rights to Stamford, and so acquired all the documentation, even on no longer produced generators. An engineer at Cummins searched the archives, and was able to find the manual for these transformer controlled self regulating generators: even including the build sheet for the particular generator s/n that I had.

I do still have the PDF of the manual, some of the information may be relevant to the Hoffberg.

Anyone wanting a copy of this PDF for Stamford model D8 and D11 can PM me, i will forward it along.

Cheers,
Hugh

Hi Hugh - Thanks for the feedback and information. I'll check out the Stamford documentation and compare that to the Hoffberg.

Download link for the Stamford D8 and D11 documentation: (9.9Mb .pdf)http://www.mediafire.com/download/b3ys2i2mjjbdy1i/Stamford_D8_and_D11_Manual.pdf

« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 08:01:31 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #159 on: September 16, 2016, 08:55:45 AM »
The genset is coming together nicely now and it's about time. I took the trip on 24 August 2013 to the farm where I picked up the engine. I can't believe it's been 3 years already... I can at least say that I renovated almost the whole house during the same time slot so it's understandable that the restoration took a little bit longer than anticipated!

I'm sure the engine runs a lot nicer with the new paint job.
It's almost like my car that drives a lot nicer when it's had a good wash and some TLC. It especially helps to polish the tyres! :D


A short clip of the engine running:
https://youtu.be/nxSdXS8P6S8

2Kw load on alternator 1499 to 1500 rpm - Engine at 563 rpm. Governor spring not the best as it jumps to 1510 rpm at no-load


No load AC voltage: 233V (at 1510 rpm)
2Kw load AC voltage: 225V (at 1500 rpm)
This should be better if the speed regulation is more accurate. I'll adjust the governor back to 1500 rpm at no load and re-check this. It should be a lot closer, but by the looks of it the voltage regulation seems to be okay. Any suggestions of other checks I can do?

I also measured both DC connections with no load S/S1 and C/C1
On both the voltage reading is 36.6 VDC, and both have a resistance measurement of 1.5 ohm  ???


« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 08:58:04 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

38ac

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #160 on: September 16, 2016, 10:23:07 AM »
My quick math isn't wasn't it once was but your governning as it stands is running under 1% from no load to something a little over half load. Not trying  to desuade you from playing with it but your expectations may be a bit unrealistic for the CS governor, it ain't electronic, LOL.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #161 on: September 16, 2016, 10:45:55 AM »
My quick math isn't wasn't it once was but your governning as it stands is running under 1% from no load to something a little over half load. Not trying  to desuade you from playing with it but your expectations may be a bit unrealistic for the CS governor, it ain't electronic, LOL.

Mind you.... to put that in another perspective, 1510 rpm takes the frequency to 50.33 Hz - not bad at all!  ;) 
What I really need to check is if the governor reacts linearly over varying loads. This was just an old spring I had lying around so I instinctively distrusted it!!  :D
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

38ac

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #162 on: September 16, 2016, 12:41:34 PM »
My experience with CS and clone governors tells me you should have that spring copied and sell them because your governor response is flat EXCELLANT!! as compared to typical ;)
I have massaged my 5KW 'roid set governor a bit and as it not stands I lose about 3Hz from no load to 3KW. Not sure how that compares with some of the others here who have spent much time and effort on governing  but as compared to stock its quite an improvement.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 12:46:57 PM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2016, 10:23:14 AM »
My experience with CS and clone governors tells me you should have that spring copied and sell them because your governor response is flat EXCELLANT!! as compared to typical ;)
I have massaged my 5KW 'roid set governor a bit and as it not stands I lose about 3Hz from no load to 3KW. Not sure how that compares with some of the others here who have spent much time and effort on governing  but as compared to stock its quite an improvement.

I've not checked yet how the governor reacts with other loads - sure hope it's good across the whole range!

The Lister did it's first real job over the weekend. I had my 40th (! ??? !) birthday party on Saturday and I thought it fit early morning to give the place it's annual wash down. I sprayed down the entertainment area (and the wife's car) with the 2.1Kw high pressure cleaner. Place was real dusty and dirty after the long dry winter. The relatively low water consumption of the pressure washer made me feel less guilty using it with the impending water restrictions... time to repent our sins and pray for forgiveness and rain! It's not quite the rainy season yet, but the dam is not looking good since the previous season was also relatively dry. Who is this "el nino" character??  >:(  Apperently his fault that it's so dry ;)   Anyway... the Lister was chugging away beautifully for 3.5 hours while I labored away -- Longest single and loaded run it's ever had in my possession :laugh: and a great back track to listen to while doing a real boring chore.

How clean is the exhaust supposed to be? No-load the exhaust is just about clean, but under load it does puff out some smoke. Is it normal? I was expecting it to be cleaner than what it is. It's done a few hours now in total so maybe time to check injector opening pressure (and timing while I'm at it).
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 10:26:38 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #164 on: September 26, 2016, 11:53:03 AM »
They say sharing is caring...
This forum and the internet has helped me a lot getting this project to where it is today. I gathered some documentation over time and now I'll share it again to help the next crazy person that ventures down this road.

I'm not sure if any of the information is copy protected, but I found it free to download without any restrictions. Please let me know if I'm stepping on someone's toes and I'll do my best to apologize politely.

Lister manuals, CAV and Bosch injection sysrems and some other useful information:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/k1n449wkfwbcsnn/CS_tech_02.zip
http://www.mediafire.com/download/fb4ye4avdom84an/SOM3.zip
http://www.mediafire.com/download/2xkza4zdyvj844c/CAVInjMan23.zip
http://www.mediafire.com/download/a7dfqj6bn6021f2/CAVInjMan2-14.zip
http://www.mediafire.com/download/999z1869oj5vka1/Bosch_Diesel_Engineering.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/download/p4ocp0nnyj1am5m/Original_Lister_Instruction_And_Parts_List_Manual.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/download/q498nf3q3wga8yw/Lister_Diesel_Manual.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/download/dbb2mbgib4y4etr/Lister_Parts_and_instructions.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/download/lbper22tvs5glcl/Lister_CS_part_numbers_DEVpdf.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/download/bgld00f720a8vw9/Lister_CS_Parts.pdf

And again just so all the important links are in one place:
Hoffberg Alternator wiring diagrams
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/u9rzyg6thvase1e,m07ub5gi9vmilgm,g15tvsl33pr32xi/shared

Stamford D8 and D11 alternators
http://www.mediafire.com/download/b3ys2i2mjjbdy1i/Stamford_D8_and_D11_Manual.pdf

Further reading for those rainy days....
49 uses for a farm engine
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6i6amkxh2ieerto/49_Uses_For_A_Farm_Engine.pdf
I think this must be printed and handed out at shows.
The expression on my face when someone stands there staring at a running engine and they ask: "what is this?" "what would you do with this?"



Flywheel explosions:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6sl36oc2sb9a6wf/Flywheel_Explosions.pdf

1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project