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Author Topic: Another 6/1 Restoration  (Read 121344 times)

EdDee

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2016, 12:34:02 PM »
Hey DS,

Saw an interesting one on the web the other day... A genhead was "gravity-tensioned" and had some unusual "dampers" to stop it jumping...

To describe the setup:

Viewed from the IP side with the genhead on the right of the flywheel, the hinge point for the genhead was on the left of the genhead, with the baseplate about 10 degrees or so above horizontal. Now the interesting bit - Some hard light colored wood, oak by the looks of it, was sandwiched between the chassis hinge lugs and the hinge lugs on the base of the genhead. (This damper system was used on vintage car suspensions if I remember correctly.)

Theory:
With the flywheel/genhead turning clockwise as viewed, the more electrical load placed on the genhead, the more the base of the genhead is torqued clockwise as well, tensioning the belts as needed under heavier loads. The closer you make to genhead base plate to horizontal, by increasing belt length, the more tension is placed on the belts.... Easy, quick and effective.... No additional dangly bits to contend with.....

Might be worth a look at....

Cheerz
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2016, 12:55:02 PM »
Hi EdDee

The description you have is exactly what I had done. (Apart from the damping system of course, and my angle is more than 10 degrees) I'll take a picture later and post it.
Do you think you can find that picture again you saw on the web?

The theory does make sense. Very interesting indeed... If I can devise a damping system I can do that instead of fiddling about with an "ordinary" tensioner.
I kinda like the idea of having an auto tensioning belts  ;D

Thanks for sharing!
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

EdDee

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2016, 09:54:27 PM »
Hey DS,

I had a look see through my history, but can't find it... Sorry...

I do remember that the "hinge" bolts for the alternator were a little bigger than the mounting bolts for the roid... the damping blocks were about 3" or maybe a little less', square... The hinge tabs looked to be around 2" wide by about 1/2" thick at a rough guestimate...

Hope that helps....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #123 on: May 12, 2016, 01:58:52 PM »
This is what the setup currently looks like:




I gave it a good load again last night to make it work. I tried to make a video of the slight bounce it has, but the trolley movement makes it difficult to see - taking that into consideration and then closely looking at it the
alternator, the bounce is actually less than what I initially thought is was.

Hey DS,

I had a look see through my history, but can't find it... Sorry...

I do remember that the "hinge" bolts for the alternator were a little bigger than the mounting bolts for the roid... the damping blocks were about 3" or maybe a little less', square... The hinge tabs looked to be around 2" wide by about 1/2" thick at a rough guestimate...

Hope that helps....

Cheers
Ed

...can't quite picture it... but thanks anyway for trying!
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #124 on: May 12, 2016, 04:39:59 PM »
@ Dieselsmoker....
I also use the hinge mount for my generator. The 8-rib drive belt slipped or chirped at higher loads, so added a tensioner in the form of a threaded rod through the generator base and attached to the engine mount rail. A nut welded to an old crank handle makes a no tool adjuster.   I have mounted this generator on the exhaust side of the engine from the cooling tank, the idea being easier removal of the crankcase access panel and  to reduce chance of coolant leaking onto the gen head. The downside is that the rotation tends to lift the generator rather than tighten the belt.......hence the tensioner: ......choices.......
IMHO, a hinge mount is a better set-up than the usual channel/slider type of mount.
There is the additional benefit of being able to remove the gen head without disturbing belt alignment by just pulling out the hinge pin.

Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

EdDee

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #125 on: May 12, 2016, 04:43:37 PM »
Hey DS,

You are pretty close to being spot on! Where your hinge point is, the other chap had tabs below the genhead base pointing down and tabs on the main chassis of the unit pointing upwards.... All in all, all it did was make the genhead ride a little higher than yours, but not by much....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #126 on: May 15, 2016, 03:30:50 PM »
@ Dieselsmoker....
I also use the hinge mount for my generator. The 8-rib drive belt slipped or chirped at higher loads, so added a tensioner in the form of a threaded rod through the generator base and attached to the engine mount rail. A nut welded to an old crank handle makes a no tool adjuster.   I have mounted this generator on the exhaust side of the engine from the cooling tank, the idea being easier removal of the crankcase access panel and  to reduce chance of coolant leaking onto the gen head. The downside is that the rotation tends to lift the generator rather than tighten the belt.......hence the tensioner: ......choices.......
IMHO, a hinge mount is a better set-up than the usual channel/slider type of mount.
There is the additional benefit of being able to remove the gen head without disturbing belt alignment by just pulling out the hinge pin.

Cheers,
Hugh

Hey Hugh.
I made the choice to mount the gen head on the opposite side purely to make the trolley shorter. The cooling tank is not very successful... even after lowering the top water fitting as low as I could to lower the water level accordingly, it still splashes out... So unless I set up a completely different cooling system, the gen head must get a roof just for insurance  :embarassed: ... Anyway, glad I went with the swivel mount - it works really well.   

Hey DS,

You are pretty close to being spot on! Where your hinge point is, the other chap had tabs below the gen head base pointing down and tabs on the main chassis of the unit pointing upwards.... All in all, all it did was make the genhead ride a little higher than yours, but not by much....

Cheers
Ed

With tests I've done so far I don't even think It needs a damper. I'll however keep my eyes open for spares - I've got an idea  ;)

______________________

Meanwhile.....
One serious air cleaning device installed  ;D
(This Donaldson was destined for a Massey Ferguson 135 that never realized and I was only too happy to accept the redundant parts).
*I test ran it for a couple a minutes after the install and I must say it is quite obvious that all the intake noise is gone.




1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

dieselgman

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #127 on: May 16, 2016, 08:50:36 AM »
Not that it is particularly needed for most light-duty stationary applications... but Lister used a large Donaldson cyclopac type filter for their heavy-duty applications. The units for the HR series have a cyclonic pre-filter that spins out much of the dirt before it ever gets to the paper filters inside. No moving parts, just a plastic bowl to empty once in awhile depending on conditions. John Deere uses something similar on their earth-moving and also farm equipment as do most other manufacturers. So, if you are needing heavy-duty air cleaning, there is plenty of stuff out there for the picking.

I have also noted quite a few third-world applications where the air filtration is simply ignored... if labor and parts are cheap enough, then maybe the economics of replacing rings (and cylinders) is not any big deal. I have seen quite a few industrial Listers with dusted rings before though, and premature engine failures are pretty costly in most places.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 08:53:24 AM by dieselgman »
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Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2016, 06:25:14 PM »

Nice setup with the air filter.
I'm always a bit surprised people, especially the people that do rely on them in the 3rd world places, seem to have a tendency to run them without air filters when they are in very dusty, dirty places.

I have an air filter box of similar swirl design from a Toyota hilux that I am keeping for the same application.  The filter is paper and is huge. I doubt it will ever need changing. Even at 90% blocked it will still probably pass enough air for the Roid!

I have thought about a water bubbler type setup where the air is drawn or bubbled through a water bath. I saw something about this in an old copy of popular mechanics I think it was. it was supposed to be a cheap and easy way to get the dirt out of excessively dusty air. the water was merely drained each day and clean water added. seemed to be very effective.
For my purposes would no doubt also have merit as a water/ vapor injection for cleaning.


Thanks glort. Quite impressed with how it turned out.
I agree. This filter has enough filter capacity to last 786655+ years!! With it being a cyclone it doesn't even draw all the dirt into the filter element. All the heavy stuff is thrown away from the element into a collector bowl. The filter is actually supposed to be installed horizontally for this to work properly, but I don't really need this feature so the most practical installation position won the day.

There was no way I would leave the original intake strainer on the engine. To me running an engine without an air cleaner just feels wrong... My Fairbanks-Morse has no air cleaner but it lives indoors and never sees dusty conditions. Can't believe people ran these engines outdoors like this...  :o

Not that it is particularly needed for most light-duty stationary applications... but Lister used a large Donaldson cyclopac type filter for their heavy-duty applications. The units for the HR series have a cyclonic pre-filter that spins out much of the dirt before it ever gets to the paper filters inside. No moving parts, just a plastic bowl to empty once in awhile depending on conditions. John Deere uses something similar on their earth-moving and also farm equipment as do most other manufacturers. So, if you are needing heavy-duty air cleaning, there is plenty of stuff out there for the picking.

I have also noted quite a few third-world applications where the air filtration is simply ignored... if labor and parts are cheap enough, then maybe the economics of replacing rings (and cylinders) is not any big deal. I have seen quite a few industrial Listers with dusted rings before though, and premature engine failures are pretty costly in most places.

dieselgman

Here is a photo of the Donaldson pre-cleaner. Again, the air cleaner is supposed to be horizontally oriented, so the pre-cleaner is now laying on it's side.


The parts:
Cap, Dust bowl and Cyclone - Air is drawn in through the cyclone fins and dust particles is spinned upwards against the inner cone of the dust bowl. As they get to the top of the cone, they get flung outwards through a gap between the cone and the cap. Particles fall to the bottom of the bowl where they collect. Pre-cleaned air passes down the centre into the air cleaner intake. Quite amazing how effective the pre-cleaner works considering that the intake is directly adjacent (in the middle of) to the cyclone. The air goes through yet another similar cyclone inside the air cleaner housing and then passes through the paper element. All this mechanical pre-cleaning extends the element life enormously.



Close-up of the pre-cleaner cyclone:


Pre-cleaner maintenance instructions. Region being South-Africa, the instructions are in both English and Afrikaans.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 06:04:55 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

EdDee

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2016, 08:24:00 PM »
Hey DS,

I had a similar pre cleaner on my filter, almost identical to yours... I found the vibration caused it to disembark a few times, eventually breaking the clear bowl... Having since removed it, less hassle and with almost 3k hours on it, hardly any restriction on the filter as yet... Also ZA conditions, less than 50m from a gravel road frequented by heavy vehicles as well....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #130 on: May 22, 2016, 07:51:26 PM »
Operation exhaust silencer:
I had a look at commercially available silencers, but decided to make my own. (Like most things on this project.) I like experimenting a bit, put my signature on the project and at the same time save some money.

Been keeping my eyes open for the last week or so for a suitable piece of pipe as a casing, when it suddenly struck me that an old fire extinguisher would work just fine for this purpose.

Exhaust flange:
Cut from a piece of 12mm plate. Hole bored out on the lathe. Used the original exhaust flange as a template.


I picked up the old extinguisher for a few bucks from an extinguisher service station. Spend quite some time to grind off the fittings and also the ring it stands on. Added bonus that it now has a nice rounded bottom. I offset the inlet from the bottom up to reduce the height, and also offset it to the side to get the silencer away from the air cleaner - notice the oblong side hole to achieve the lateral offset.

 
The intake baffle:
Millions of randomly drilled holes..... 


Trial fit:




Next step will be to cut the top off and make some (I think 3) chambers and baffles. Plenty more holes to drill  :o
Still not sure what packing material to use. I'll give the exhaust shop a call and find out if they've got something. I have some ceramic heat blanket, but after some Google searches I gave up on that idea. Apparently there are some health concerns with fibers that dislodge over time and gets blown into atmosphere. Steel wool burns... pot scrubbers can work, but I'll need to buy a whole bunch of them and that will be a very uneconomical solution.
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #131 on: June 06, 2016, 10:18:56 AM »
A small update again on my build:

Top of first chamber. Gas flows from the 1st chamber to the 3rd chamber (topmost), down into chamber #2 and then vents to atmosphere.


Parts for the second and third expansion chamber:  


I ran the engine under load for some time and it sounds very nice. No more hurting ears.. Note my anti splash cover on the cooling tank  :D.
I covered it with a piece of petrol cloth and it completely stopped the splashing. Not sure if it takes away too much surface area for proper evaporation,
but it did allow a good amount of steam come off. I think I'll make a nice frame for the screen so it can fit inside the tank.
https://youtu.be/mL4nzjA142Q
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 05:04:54 PM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #132 on: July 10, 2016, 02:12:52 PM »
Hi.
I've been searching the web to find a Diesel tank for the 6/1 when I stumbled accross this at Central Marine Diesel:
http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/inc/invoice_parts.asp?Page=Fuel_Tank

Have any of you dealt with Central Marine? How is the service? I usually only buy when I can pay with Paypal, but I'm now forced to pay with my credit card...


1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

BruceM

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #133 on: July 10, 2016, 02:55:03 PM »
I"ve bought parts from CMD and have had no problems.  Their parts are a match for my older Metro branded Listeroid; the 4 big bolt heads and cylinders with liners, cast iron rings in cast iron liner. They ship promptly and have Rajkot made parts (with all that implies) in stock at competative prices.  I don't know that I'd recommend a Rajkot fuel tank- my original Metro petcock parts in particular were poorly made and leaky. The stamped steel bits should be OK.  In all my years on the forum I don't recall a single complaint about CMD, and they have been around for a long time.

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #134 on: July 10, 2016, 04:03:21 PM »
I don't know that I'd recommend a Rajkot fuel tank- my original Metro petcock parts in particular were poorly made and leaky. The stamped steel bits should be OK.

Thanks for the feedback Bruce. Quality is always a concern and I'm not really prepared to throw good money at a crap. I'll try my luck a bit more around here and see if I can find an original one. Chances I'll find one is pretty good, but the location and price might be a tough combo to beat. I'f I can't locate one I'm gonna have to take my chances on the curry tank.  ;)   :D

1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project