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Author Topic: Another 6/1 Restoration  (Read 121357 times)

TxBlacksmith

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2016, 03:32:51 PM »
Nice joint design and beautiful bead on the weld!  ;D

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2016, 03:41:37 PM »
Nice joint design and beautiful bead on the weld!  ;D

Thanks TxB!
The trolley will be rock-solid when I'm done with it. This Diesel will never break it.

Anyone have a plan with the broken alternator foot? (I don't have the missing piece).
I was thinking of crafting a foot using fibreglass bodyfiller just to patch it up cosmetically...
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

EdDee

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2016, 04:49:08 PM »
Hey Ds,

By all means, patch it up cosmetically, but first I would put it on a slightly oversize 6 or 10 mm base plate and drill/tap a fourth bolt from below into that corner. Even if your engine is a smooth runner, the power stroke could cause a bit of a hop on the alternator end... with steel wheels and a hard surface below them, the shock loading, even from a few mm of travel up and down, is enormous on something as heavy as the alternator... Rather safe than sorry, much easier to do it now than fabricate an entire base after the CI has gone jigsaw on you....

Possibly I am a bit over cautious, but hey, let's see what the real fundis  say....

Cheers
Ed

PS... I got a Gravely 12hp mini tractor and a Gravely mini 2 wheel tractor that would tow this creature of yours easily.... but..... you ain't getting 'em... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2016, 07:28:50 AM »
I think I complained about this previously.... this trolley is taking me forever to build!!  ???
I must shift most of the blame to other projects (Like building a shed behind my garage), but still - I have put hours and hours of work into this already.
5+Kg of welding rods later I'm starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel  ;D

It was a pain moving the trolley, so the priority became to make the drawbar before doing anything else:




The v-belts ran real close to the channel closest to the flywheel. Not sure if they would actually ever touch, but I decided not to take a chance and I fabricated a cutout into the beam.
I welded in a short piece of channel so the structural integrity of the modified beam would not be affected.
View from above:


View from below:


Last of the structural members welded in place:
Support for the swivel plate and gussets (made from channel) to strengthen the joint and also for some cosmetic benefits.


Next would be to determine the position of the cooling tank and then build frame for that.
Oh yes... and then slot some holes in the frame and make a tensioner for the alternator. Not sure how to accurately get those pulley grooves aligned... any ideas?

1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2016, 01:42:16 PM »
Something just crossed my mind. I was never able to accurately determine the year model of this engine.
(There is a picture on page one of this thread of the nameplate)

Can someone help please?

 6/1 CS
16786113


1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

AdeV

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #110 on: April 06, 2016, 04:03:21 PM »
Engine No: 1678
Spec: 61
Year: 13 (+1950) = 1963
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #111 on: April 06, 2016, 08:54:16 PM »
Engine No: 1678
Spec: 61
Year: 13 (+1950) = 1963

 :o Easy! Thanks AdeV!

Date also confirmed by the markings on the crankcase casting:

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7569.msg85511#msg85511
There is another way of dating a genuine Lister CS engine.  This information has been copied and pasted from the UK Lister CSOG  and it goes like this.

You can always look on the crankcase, on the opposite side to the
injection pump, right above the crankshaft bearing housing you will
find foundry casting marks telling you the month and year that it was
cast. It will be something like 15-A-53
Where 15 is the day or batch number, A is the month, where A=Jan,
B=Feb etc and 53 is the year.

Mick

This one would then be:
3 = Day/Batch
D = April
63 = 1963
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 06:03:22 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #112 on: April 18, 2016, 02:06:22 PM »
Showing some more progress.
New rings and small end bush fitted. Nice to run the engine with a clean exhaust for the first time. I think my garage is very well fumigated after running the engine without the oil ring  ;D

After putting the alternator back on the frame I had another look at the belt alignment problem.
There is a tool available that locates inside the V grooves with magnets and then the alignment is done with laser pointers, but I don't have that luxury - one can never have enough tools!!
Only way I could figure out was to measure the distance from the top of the groove to the face of the pulley - and the same on the flywheel.

(Click image to enlarge)


The difference between the pulley groove and flywheel groove distance from the respective wheel face is 22.5mm. Thus, with the straight edge against the flywheel face there must be an opening of 22.5mm between the straight edge and the alternator pulley.
I might make blocks that will fit on the face of the alternator pulley, otherwise I'll just measure the gap with an inside micrometer.
First I need to fabricate the swivel and mount the alternator before I worry further about this.


Also started preparing the material for the water tank stand:


Nice snug fit inside the ring.

1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

dieselspanner

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #113 on: April 20, 2016, 09:54:38 PM »
Hi Dieselsmoker

That's all I've ever done to get the belt(s) to run true, I've never used anything more technical than a Stanley tape, half a mil +/- should be fine

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #114 on: May 09, 2016, 11:35:27 AM »
Hey guys. I had some "Lister coffee" on Saturday!! The moment was big and my hands were dirty so I never even made a video... (Good excuse to do it again). It was great to finally be able to put some load on the engine after all the hard work I put into it. I boiled the (2 Kw) kettle 3 times during the hour I had the engine running. When I boiled kettle #3 the exhaust started to clear up nicely so the rings must be close to bedding in. The governor didn't react like it should - The engine lost some speed so the spring must be a bit stiff. I also did a quick speed check and with the alternator at 1500 rpm the engine was doing about 580 rpm - pity about that... almost 1 horse lost there...

Still a couple of things on my to-do list, but I'm already toying with an idea in the back of my head to improve the cooling system's look and function.
(I'm thinking to base the dimensions roughly on the 50 liter drum I am using at the moment.)
The top stays open for evaporation and a good number of copper tubes between the top and bottom tank to disperse the heat.


Any thoughts or ideas?
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

carlb23

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #115 on: May 09, 2016, 11:38:01 AM »
a small radiator would be much cheaper and save a bunch of space

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #116 on: May 09, 2016, 01:01:29 PM »
Agreed, but the looks are almost (if not more) important than function as the gen-set will also be a showpiece when I'm done with it. If I could lay my hands on one of those old cast iron radiators I would go for it in an instant, but I can't find something like that anywhere... Home heating radiators were (and are) not commonly used in my area due to the climate. I wish I had a feeling of the required cooling capacity of the engine. I can go ahead and build my tube radiator, but will it have enough cooling capacity to cool the engine under continuous load conditions...? Judging by how long it takes for the engine to warm up after a cold start I think I might be unnecessarily worried about the requirement. 
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

EdDee

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #117 on: May 09, 2016, 01:58:58 PM »
Hi DS....

+1 for what CarlB said.... But... For something really pretty.... Look for an OLD 100L low pressure electrical inline geyser(water heater)... they had copper inners.... Strip off the outer insulation, stand on the non-element side(which is dished) and put the needed fittings in place after taking off the other/top/element side to give you a lovely, copper water tank.... To sit and solder all those copper pipes in will be a pain on your design, as well as prone to cracking loose if you transport it much on bad roads....

Just a thought....

Cheerz
Ed

PS - Failing that, take a look round the scrapyards for an OLD radiator, a la Fergusson TED or Massey 135 .... Brass endcaps with copper cores and fins.... Looks beautiful when the black paint is removed and clear lacquer is applied....
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #118 on: May 10, 2016, 12:17:08 AM »
@Smoker....find yourself a cast iron rad......way cool (sorry, couldn't resist) and  a 10 fin works great. That's what I'm using for my "Roid daily driver.
My Dursley Startomatic has an old milk can with bosses welded in for its cooling tank and a stainless beer keg for the fuel tank........
As long as it is painted in Brunswick green you are good to go!

"Run what you brung"

Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2016, 10:55:24 AM »
Hi DS....

+1 for what CarlB said.... But... For something really pretty.... Look for an OLD 100L low pressure electrical inline geyser(water heater)... they had copper inners.... Strip off the outer insulation, stand on the non-element side(which is dished) and put the needed fittings in place after taking off the other/top/element side to give you a lovely, copper water tank.... To sit and solder all those copper pipes in will be a pain on your design, as well as prone to cracking loose if you transport it much on bad roads....

Just a thought....

Cheerz
Ed

PS - Failing that, take a look round the scrapyards for an OLD radiator, a la Fergusson TED or Massey 135 .... Brass endcaps with copper cores and fins.... Looks beautiful when the black paint is removed and clear lacquer is applied....

Chances I'll find a water heater like that is probably close to zero, but you have a fresh idea with the brass radiator... I'll sure keep my eyes open for one of those!
If I ever do go with my design I'll weld some steel bracing in between the two tanks, but yes... it will be a pain to assemble and solder it...


@Smoker....find yourself a cast iron rad......way cool (sorry, couldn't resist) and  a 10 fin works great. That's what I'm using for my "Roid daily driver.
My Dursley Startomatic has an old milk can with bosses welded in for its cooling tank and a stainless beer keg for the fuel tank........
As long as it is painted in Brunswick green you are good to go!

"Run what you brung"

Cheers,
Hugh

Sure you are very sorry for mentioning that....  :P One of those cast radiators is right at the top of my wishlist!
Nice idea with the milk can and diesel tank by the way! 

AS much as it will upset the old school Purists, I have come to believe that critical belt alignment is WAY over rated. Like a lot of other things on the net.
I don't know if it is modern belts or the thing of having perfect alignment was a crock from the start but I have run things Big hours with visibly way off belts and haven't been able to find any problem.
Obviously the longer the belt the more ability and flexibility it has to self align.

If one is concerned about getting 10 years out of a belt I'm sure perfect alignment helps but if you are one that believes in preventative maintenance and changing things before they fail, then a bit of misalignment in my experience doesn't hurt and I have never seen it really damage or wear a belt either.  I suppose it would depend on what one considered a reasonable degree of being out but I have had some I looked at and thought " bloody hell!" and it seemed that the lack of efficiency may have been a lot more of a problem than reduced belt life.

Not saying you can have them a mile out and don't worry, just no need to get too precise IMHO.... especially if you have a 2 ft gap between the pulleys.  

I got the alignment to within 0.5 mm and left it there - I must strip the set again to paint the trolley and the alternator and I might fiddle with it some more when I reassemble it. I was a bit worried about the belt life, but comparing my alignment accuracy with your experience of "visibly way off alignment" my belt should last just fine. Good to get feedback from actual experience.

Like you said, the pulley center distance and of course other factors like load and speed will all play a role in the alignment and tension tolerance. When I did my trade test we were had to align the pulley faces to within 0.1 mm  

The other thing I have found is tension. I put just enough on to stop them slipping and that's it. My brother in law worked in the power transmission industry and he was in agreeance. He said the less tension, the less strain and load on bearings and as long as they don't slip, all good.  

Fully agree there.
I mounted the alternator on a swivel base. I still need to make the tensioner, so now only the weight of the alternator is tensioning the belts. Although the alternator is quite heavy, I must say I was a bit surprised that there was no slip when I put a full load on the alternator. There is a very slight bounce of the alternator when it runs so I'll just add the tensioner to the base so I can lock it in position.

That said, I remember going interstate one night on business and staying in this high class hotel. Outside the window there must have been an AC unit or ventilator or something.  Every time the thing kicked in, the belts on this thing would scream and scare the ship out of me.  I had a load of crap with me and really didn't want to move it all in the middle of the night but I didn't get used to the screeching. By the morning I was a tired, nervous wreck.
I went down to the desk and didn't even try to be polite or subtle. They upgraded me to a very swish room and although I wasn't going to stay, I said well I was going to now stay another 3 nights as I have more people to see, am I going to have to move yet again?  No, that's fine.  Terrific. Mrs and I had 3 days sight seeing although most of the first day we spent catching up on sleep we missed from the night before.

 :D Yup - they sure do make one horrifying noise. We had a big dust extraction unit where I work. The motor had probably 6 v-belts driving the impeller and it made that same horrible screeching noise when it stated  :o  It sounds wrong - but a v-belt has a surprising amount of tolerance for start-up slipping. They can screech like that day in and day out for years - as long as they don't slip while running. I had a VW Jetta with a very short narrow v-belt driving the alternator from the aircon pulley. If I gave it halve a chance to slip the belt was toast... I now sure do appreciate the poly-v belts!


Still a couple of things on my to-do list, but I'm already toying with an idea in the back of my head to improve the cooling system's look and function.

Any thoughts or ideas?

If you want something small or even you could hide, Look a t the cabin heater from a car.  They will transfer an amazing amount of heat thanks to their dense design.  I had a car i took the cooling fans off all together and in traffic wold just run the heater flat out. Yes, after a couple of summers doing that it got old but the car never over heated. I had a W123 Diesel mec I used to tow an oversize trailer with. Thing was only about half the cars rated towing weight but being enclosed and having a huge frontage, it was like a parachute. Towing it over 80 even with friends far more new and powerful cars used to really tax the HP and heat the things up.

The old merc would be running right at the wrong end of hot but putting on the cabin heater and rolling down all the windows made a HUGE difference.  Even on my current truck that has a radiator like a Mack, it can get too warm pulling heavy loads up slow, winding hills.  Put the cabin heater on and it's fine.  Clearly they are dispatching a lot more than 6 HP worth of heat so I have no doubt they would easily keep a lister cool with the right fan sucking the air through.

Another one I see at the local engine show most years is a setup where the guy uses the frame itself as the radiator. He has both a genny and a pump mounted on the frame so it's kinda long and also built with the purpose in mind but the water travels through and around the frame and uses it as the heat exchanger.  There are a couple of fittings on each end and he said he ran a 1" Pipe through the centre and was going to couple that to the pump throughput for extra cooling but found it wasn't necessary.

There is an opportunity to come up with something creative, different and funky here that could make the engine a real conversation piece.  Maybe go for something a bit unusual here to really make your setup stand out.

Very true about the efficiency of the heater heat exchangers.

Doing something unusual can be just as interesting as something that looks pretty...  8)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 11:12:07 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project