Author Topic: Another 6/1 Restoration  (Read 121291 times)

Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2015, 01:50:18 AM »
Dieselsmoker:
I am one of those who switched over from straight non detergent oil to a detergent oil in my listeroid. I have many small engines around the homestead, they all specify detergent oil and none have filters, seemed like if a modern Honda or such can run detergent, then a very forgiving slow-speed engine can do it as well. I have added a filter to the listeroid. Got it from SEP; the cost was reasonable and replacement cartridges are available from your local NAPA dealer.
Details on a previous post.
I have recently refurbished my Dursley 6/1, and will be using detergent oil in it as well. I believe later Dursley manuals specified detergent oil, but don't quote me there.
I am using up the remainder of my 5 gallon pail of straight 30 wt to oil the valve springs and push-rods.
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

AdeV

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2015, 12:21:37 PM »
One option to consider is to add an external oil pump & filter; simply feed from the sump, run through the filter, back into the sump. When the engine is running, you'll filter all of the oil regularly, and even with it not running you'll filter 99%. Keep a weather eye on the state of the filter (unless you go for a spin-on type that you can't easily examine).
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

richardhula

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2015, 02:26:56 PM »
Dieselsmoker:
I am one of those who switched over from straight non detergent oil to a detergent oil in my listeroid. I have many small engines around the homestead, they all specify detergent oil and none have filters, seemed like if a modern Honda or such can run detergent, then a very forgiving slow-speed engine can do it as well. I have added a filter to the listeroid. Got it from SEP; the cost was reasonable and replacement cartridges are available from your local NAPA dealer.
Details on a previous post.
I have recently refurbished my Dursley 6/1, and will be using detergent oil in it as well. I believe later Dursley manuals specified detergent oil, but don't quote me there.
I am using up the remainder of my 5 gallon pail of straight 30 wt to oil the valve springs and push-rods.
Cheers,
Hugh

Temper your thoughts with the fact that old slow revving engines without full flow oil filtration rely on the non or low detergent (API CD or lower) oil allowing metal particles as a result of normal wear and tear dropping out of harms to the bottom of the sump. Hence provision to mop out the sump from time to time. Higher detergent oils used in engines with full flow oil filtration effectively encapsulate these same small particles and so allow them to be carried in the oil to be trapped by the filter. Clearly if there were allowed to pass through engine bearing surfaces time and again it would not be conducive to engine longevity.

Remember also the old misconception that modern detergent oils were not around when Lister first built diesels, but would have recommended the latest detergent oils nowadays, carries no weight. They certainly never recommended such with any of their engines that didn't have full filtration.

TxBlacksmith

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2015, 05:59:02 PM »

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2015, 08:46:41 PM »
Beautiful job on the restoration!  Sounds very sweet.
Some of us Listeroid owners have been using detergent oils and have thousands of hours without troubles, including myself. 
I was having trouble with spalling of the upper big connecting bearing initially, but this was solved by going to a solid upper bearing (no oil grooves) and a hollow dipper.  The problem may have just been the typical Rajkot bearing quality and nothing more.
Thanks BruceM. Yes the engine sound very nice. I just need to get an exhaust silencer to get rid of the loud barking - Next a cooling tank so I don't have to shut it down!

Dieselsmoker:
I am one of those who switched over from straight non detergent oil to a detergent oil in my listeroid. I have many small engines around the homestead, they all specify detergent oil and none have filters, seemed like if a modern Honda or such can run detergent, then a very forgiving slow-speed engine can do it as well. I have added a filter to the listeroid. Got it from SEP; the cost was reasonable and replacement cartridges are available from your local NAPA dealer.
Details on a previous post.
I have recently refurbished my Dursley 6/1, and will be using detergent oil in it as well. I believe later Dursley manuals specified detergent oil, but don't quote me there.
I am using up the remainder of my 5 gallon pail of straight 30 wt to oil the valve springs and push-rods.
Cheers,
Hugh
I have a copy of one of the newer manuals and it does specify detergent oil. This exact specification is what made me wonder just HOW serious the oil issue is. I have absolutely no experience with non-detergent oil and I would be very interested to see how soon, and how much sludge would form in the engine. I also own small air cooled petrol engines that has been run on high detergent oils all their life. My Briggs & Stratton 5HP is a 1979 model that still mows the lawn twice a week year in and year out... I do however believe that regular oil changes did the trick.

One option to consider is to add an external oil pump & filter; simply feed from the sump, run through the filter, back into the sump. When the engine is running, you'll filter all of the oil regularly, and even with it not running you'll filter 99%. Keep a weather eye on the state of the filter (unless you go for a spin-on type that you can't easily examine).
This is a great idea to achieve maximum filtration capacity. Maybe something to consider for someone who works the engine relentlessly and wants maximum life from the engine.

Temper your thoughts with the fact that old slow revving engines without full flow oil filtration rely on the non or low detergent (API CD or lower) oil allowing metal particles as a result of normal wear and tear dropping out of harms to the bottom of the sump. Hence provision to mop out the sump from time to time. Higher detergent oils used in engines with full flow oil filtration effectively encapsulate these same small particles and so allow them to be carried in the oil to be trapped by the filter. Clearly if there were allowed to pass through engine bearing surfaces time and again it would not be conducive to engine longevity.

Remember also the old misconception that modern detergent oils were not around when Lister first built diesels, but would have recommended the latest detergent oils nowadays, carries no weight. They certainly never recommended such with any of their engines that didn't have full filtration.
I fully agree with the non-detergent theory BUT: I have a 1970 Lister CS instruction book that states: "The engine must be run on good quality diesel engine heavy duty detergent lubricating oil." There might however be a catch in the wording as the specification is "MIL-L-2104A", MIL-L-2104A  detergent oil is a very old spec - a comparison to a modern oil might be interesting.

Here is a source in the U.S.  I haven't tried it, but a friend of mine has used it in his hit and miss engines..

http://www.ruralking.com/oil-harvest-king-30wt-n-d-2-gal.html?utm_medium=cpc&tum_source=bing&utm_campaign=%28roi%29+agriculture+-+shopping&utm_content=agriculture+shopping
Nice to have these products available off the shelve. I'll follow the link and see what I can find out regarding the specifications.
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

richardhula

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #80 on: August 11, 2015, 11:44:42 PM »

Temper your thoughts with the fact that old slow revving engines without full flow oil filtration rely on the non or low detergent (API CD or lower) oil allowing metal particles as a result of normal wear and tear dropping out of harms to the bottom of the sump. Hence provision to mop out the sump from time to time. Higher detergent oils used in engines with full flow oil filtration effectively encapsulate these same small particles and so allow them to be carried in the oil to be trapped by the filter. Clearly if there were allowed to pass through engine bearing surfaces time and again it would not be conducive to engine longevity.

Remember also the old misconception that modern detergent oils were not around when Lister first built diesels, but would have recommended the latest detergent oils nowadays, carries no weight. They certainly never recommended such with any of their engines that didn't have full filtration.
I fully agree with the non-detergent theory BUT: I have a 1970 Lister CS instruction book that states: "The engine must be run on good quality diesel engine heavy duty detergent lubricating oil." There might however be a catch in the wording as the specification is "MIL-L-2104A", MIL-L-2104A  detergent oil is a very old spec - a comparison to a modern oil might be interesting.


The MIL-L-2104A spec you mention is equivalent to API CA, the very lowest detergency in this range introduced in 1954. Ironically its suggested use was for light duty engines. API CC or CD spec although also superceeded many years ago, are listed for heavy duty use. I think the term detergent mentioned in your instruction book was relative to that available at the time it was first printed, all these oils being regarded as low detergent nowadays.

In the UK such oils are readily available from several different suppliers. Straight grade Morris Golden Film (API CC/SD, MIL-L-2104B) is the most popular choice though for use in Lister diesels without full flow filtration. I'm sure a search for classic motor oils would reveal many sources in the US. Note that API specs are prefixed by C for compression and S for spark ignition engines.

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2015, 01:19:19 PM »
Governor
The governor linkages are now being overhauled, and I'm very close to zero play at this stage. I'll post some pictures of what I did when I'm done. I need a governor spring... I can import one from S.E.P. later, but that is weeks away from happening. In the meantime I'll check what the hardware store has. Any idea how to check for the correct pull strength?

Cooling the 6/1
I've had my eyes open for a while now for a cooling tank. I can't find anything I like, and I'll probably end up with a plain old 209 Liter steel drum... (46 UK Gal)
Ambient temperatures range between sub zero degree C in winter and easily reach 35+ degree C (95+ degree F) in summer. From what I read, the 209 L drum is supposed to be the correct size tank? ....it's just so big... the unit will be trolley mounted and I can only imagine how heavy the whole set will be when it's finished.

How much water capacity is needed when the unit is worked hard for say 12 hours? Should I stick with the 209 L? I don't actually have a plan B other than maybe making the drum a little shorter?
I should anyway also look at fitting a thermostat. I think it will take hours to put some heat in all that water? (unless the flow is restricted to allow the engine to warm up?)

The 209L drum next to the 6/1 looks way out of proportion. This can make sense for prolonged unattended  operation, but not for standby and display use especially when portability is a factor.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 12:45:41 PM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

BruceM

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2015, 07:20:49 PM »
Where freezing is a concern, many of us find it is more practical to use a radiator; much less expense on antifreeze.

Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2015, 11:17:19 PM »

@Dieselsmoker

Re: Gov spring. Check WOK at the top of the forum.
Springs mentioned there seem to do the job really well. I am still able to hold 1Hz difference between no load and full load of 3200 Watts (60.4Hz-59.4Hz).  Available at Home Depot for small money, and works better (much better) than the OEM spring on my Dursley Startomatic.
The yoke at the pump rack needs some slop to overcome binding due to geometry of the linkage.

Cooling: I am using a 30 gallon boiler tank which takes hours to reach a stable temperature under load. Have run as much as 8 hours without getting too hot in moderate OAT conditions.
As BruceM says, antifreeze is costly. And the antifreeze needs changing after a time, again costly and difficult to dispose of properly. I am converting to an old fashioned cast iron radiator that a friend kindly gave me. Drastically reduces antifreeze quantity requirement. In the "old days" of listeroids, I recall G. Breckenridge used one of these cast iron rads to cool his 6/1 test engine with great success. A bit hard to come by though.

Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2015, 10:08:26 AM »
Where freezing is a concern, many of us find it is more practical to use a radiator; much less expense on antifreeze.
Hi Bruce. Valid point - I am however more inclined to using a tank due to it's simplicity and authentic look..


@Dieselsmoker

Re: Gov spring. Check WOK at the top of the forum.
Springs mentioned there seem to do the job really well. I am still able to hold 1Hz difference between no load and full load of 3200 Watts (60.4Hz-59.4Hz).  Available at Home Depot for small money, and works better (much better) than the OEM spring on my Dursley Startomatic.
The yoke at the pump rack needs some slop to overcome binding due to geometry of the linkage.

Cooling: I am using a 30 gallon boiler tank which takes hours to reach a stable temperature under load. Have run as much as 8 hours without getting too hot in moderate OAT conditions.
As BruceM says, antifreeze is costly. And the antifreeze needs changing after a time, again costly and difficult to dispose of properly. I am converting to an old fashioned cast iron radiator that a friend kindly gave me. Drastically reduces antifreeze quantity requirement. In the "old days" of listeroids, I recall G. Breckenridge used one of these cast iron rads to cool his 6/1 test engine with great success. A bit hard to come by though.

Cheers,
Hugh

Hi Hugh.
Thanks, I'll go read up in the WOK on the spring and see what I can find. I'm about 5000 miles away from the nearest Home Depot, but I'm sure I'll figure this one out with some experimentation.

Regarding the tank size... I phoned the company I bought the huge massive colossal tank from, and they have a 50 Liter tank I will go look at later.
50L = 11 UK gal or 13 US gal. Any thoughts on how well that will work?

That 220 L drum will make a nice storage container behind the garage for my firewood.
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

38ac

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2015, 11:40:58 AM »
As you have found  tank cooling is not going to be a great set up if you want cooling under all conditions plus portability. I had a 6/1 that we took to shows and to place some load on it we ran a generator head and pulled a couple fans.  Cooling was provided by a 15 gallon tank which provided the look yet saved weight and bulk. That engine would go 4 hours or so on hot days or all day during cool weather. Sold that engine in a weak moment but have pictures of a similar set up with a 6/1 Listeroid  if you care to see them.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2015, 03:17:51 PM »
As you have found  tank cooling is not going to be a great set up if you want cooling under all conditions plus portability. I had a 6/1 that we took to shows and to place some load on it we ran a generator head and pulled a couple fans.  Cooling was provided by a 15 gallon tank which provided the look yet saved weight and bulk. That engine would go 4 hours or so on hot days or all day during cool weather. Sold that engine in a weak moment but have pictures of a similar set up with a 6/1 Listeroid  if you care to see them.

With the lower capacity I can consider using antifreeze. That said, the engine will live indoors so freezing should never be a problem and if the threat exists I will simply drain the coolant from the engine.
I will NEVER say no to engine pics!  ;D
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Jordan

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2015, 05:38:47 PM »
I just looked up the drawing that Lister made of a Start-O-Matic CS1 installed in a masonary shed.
The cooling tank, also in the shed, is even bigger than a standard "200 litre" drum.
The diameter is similar at 23 inches, but the height is 47 inches, compared to normal drum at 34.5 inches.
It gives a capacity approaching 320 litres, about a third greater. That's about 70 imperial gallons, or 84 US gallons.

It seems to be the factory recommedation, but there are some puzzling aspects.
Like, isn't there such a thing as over-cooling?
And, where does the heat go, when it does eventually build up?
There's no fan, and it's inside an enclosed place, presumably (for silence).

Like the exhaust system, I'm baffled.

Jordan

TxBlacksmith

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2015, 09:06:44 PM »
Nice looking engine!  ;D  Anybody got a pic of the type of cast iron radiator you are talking about? 
Is this like the old room warming radiators?

Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2015, 10:23:28 PM »
TxBlacksmith....here is a link to a vid from 2010. shows George B's simple set-up with a cast iron radiator. |My radiator has about double this amount of fins (9) so should work fine.   http://www.utterpower.com/new-videos-on-the-way-heres-the-pumphouse-in-hd/

Dieselsmoker.........In South Africda, you are indeed far away from a Home Depot. Here in Canada, the HD stores do not carry that spring either, so I had a friend in the U.S.  buy and send one to me. Perhaps someone on the forum who lives in the U.S. would send you one. They most definately work.

Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project