Puppeteer

Author Topic: Another 6/1 Restoration  (Read 70854 times)

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3141
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2015, 09:36:30 PM »
Fit and measure a wrist-pin to determine the wear involved.

On the main bearings... I would just add the recommended oil clearance to the initial machined journal dimension for determining the shell dimension.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Self-Certified Professional Engine Lover
    • View Profile
    • Get your spares back!
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2015, 09:27:17 AM »
Time to catch up on my latest progress.
The project has now finally reached a turning point. All the heavy dirt is gone, and almost everything is cleaned up. NOW the fun starts!!!
There is still a mountain of work ahead of me, but to finish off, assemble and see all the bits coming together is very satisfying.

Cleaning up the crankshaft.


Primer coated and casting pin holes filled.


Time to go green.


I put an unthinkable amount of work into the flywheels. I'm very satisfied with the way they turned out. This is after all the part that spectators stare the most at  ;)


« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 11:14:42 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Self-Certified Professional Engine Lover
    • View Profile
    • Get your spares back!
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2015, 10:01:29 AM »
Fit and measure a wrist-pin to determine the wear involved.

On the main bearings... I would just add the recommended oil clearance to the initial machined journal dimension for determining the shell dimension.

dieselgman

It's kinda weird that with all the information available on these engines, the technical stuff is thin on the ground... but I suppose that's why we have this forum.
If no-one has the info we'll figure it out!

Time to drag the thick green book closer. (This thing knows more than google  8) )
Machinery's Handbook, twenty-first edition of 1980
Summary of relevant information on page 1540:

RC (Running Clearance), Categorized from 1-9
RC1 - Close sliding fits. Accurate location without perceptible play
RC2 - Sliding fits. Accurate location. Fit, move and turn easily. Not intended to run freely. May seize with small temperature changes.
RC3 - Precision running. Closest fit which can be expected to run freely. Slow speed, light journal pressure. Not suitable for where appreciable temperature changes are likely to be encountered.
RC4 Close running fit. Accurate machinery with moderate surface speeds and journal pressure where accurate location and minimum play is required.
RC5 & RC6 Medium running fits. Higher running speeds and/or heavy journal pressures.
RC7 Free running fit. Accuracy is not essential and/or large temperature variations.
RC8 & RC9 Loose running fits. For wide commercial tolerances together with an allowance on the external member.

If I look at this RC5/RC6 looks about right?

For RC5, in the 2 range, the clearance must be between 2.5 thou (0.064mm) and 5.5 thou (0.14mm).
Lets say the crank measures 1.998, then the bush must measure
Minimum: 1.998 + 0.0025 = 2.0005 (50.81mm) 
Maximum: 1.998 + 0.0055 = 2.0035 (50.89mm)

Machinery's Handbook, twenty-first edition of 1980. Page 1543


Machinery's Handbook, twenty-first edition of 1980. Page 1544


Regards,
DS
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 11:38:34 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3141
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2015, 01:47:01 PM »
There are some snippets of this information here and there in the technical literature, but it is a bit of a pain that not much is published together in a readily accessible format. As the decades went by, Lister did improve greatly on their workshop and technical manuals.

On those clearances... I believe that we have used 0.003" as nominal oil clearance but I will have to do some looking to confirm with precision. Your information for RC5 does look about right.

I could just measure a new main bearing for you as a point of reference.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Self-Certified Professional Engine Lover
    • View Profile
    • Get your spares back!
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2015, 02:38:12 PM »
There are some snippets of this information here and there in the technical literature, but it is a bit of a pain that not much is published together in a readily accessible format. As the decades went by, Lister did improve greatly on their workshop and technical manuals.

On those clearances... I believe that we have used 0.003" as nominal oil clearance but I will have to do some looking to confirm with precision. Your information for RC5 does look about right.

I could just measure a new main bearing for you as a point of reference.

dieselgman

Hi dgm.
Thank you, I will appreciate that.

DS
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Self-Certified Professional Engine Lover
    • View Profile
    • Get your spares back!
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2015, 11:59:35 AM »
Dieselsmoker, That main bearing flange (thrust face) thickness should be 0.30 inches or 7.8mm.

dieselgman

Hi dgm
I cleaned up the bearing that is still in one piece and I measure 0.323" (8.2mm). Will you please check the size again? Is it not maybe 8.8mm??
This 8.2mm I get must definitely be undersize considering the wear on the rest of the assembly.
The bore of this bush measures 50.86mm mean. (0.02mm oval). Working on STD sizes it's about a thou over maximum.

I'm busy capturing all these tolerances and dimensions in a spreadsheet. I'll share when the blank blocks are all filled in. If you don't mind I'll ask for your input later on.



1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3141
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2015, 06:14:33 PM »
I just measured the main bearing bush and get the following dimensions (in inches):

Thrust flange thickness is 0.313"
bearing inside diameter is 2.018"

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2015, 09:01:52 PM »

 
Hi, Sorry I have been busy in the shop and not keeping on reading your build.

Most all the information you seek is there however it is in a form that is not familiar to us that are used to more modern specification tables.


The crank shaft main bearing portion is nominal 2" diameter the crank pin is nominal 2 1/2"
However the machining limits are - 2 /2 1/2 which is thousands or -.002/.0025  
So the finished main bearing diameter is 1.9975 /1.998
 The finished crank pin must measure 2.498 /2.4975

The main bearings shells are also 2" nominal, You must assume this because they are to fit on a 2" nominal shaft.
The  I.D. tolerance for the main bearings is +3/4 to -1/4 or + .00075/ - .00025 so the I.D. of a new main bearing would be 2.00075 -1.99975
The I.D. tolerance for a fitted rod (big end) bearing is +1/2/-1/2 or  +.00050/ -.00050 or 2.5005 / 2.4995

To translate all that in to running clearances
The maximum main bearing clearance is the smallest shaft .1.9975 fitted to the largest bearing I.D 2.00075  which yields .003 clearance
The minimum main bearing clearance would be the maximum shaft 1.998 fitted to the minimum bearing I.D. 1.99975 which yields ,00175

The maximum rod bearing clearance is the minimum pin 2.4975 fitted to a maximum shell 2.5005 or  .003
The minimum rod bearing clearance is the maximum pin 2.498 fitted to a minimum shell 2.4995  or .0015
I
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 01:47:17 AM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Self-Certified Professional Engine Lover
    • View Profile
    • Get your spares back!
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2015, 08:51:55 PM »
Thanks for the input on the sizes and tolerances dieselgman and 38c. I think I now have everything I need.

______________________________________________________________________________________

My next venture is to fix the main bearing.



After inquiring about the types and availability of babbit, I was given a 2kg chunk of W.M.40 babbit to play with.
Nothing to loose, so lets see how it turns out:

I made a core with a 1 degree draw. Plenty undersize to make the pour easier. The collar is to pour the trust face. (Also with a draw)



Old babbit melted out:
The bore and thrust face retained their tinning nicely.


Collar in place:


A piece of shimstock wrapped around the bush has 3 purposes:
1 - Hold the collar in position.
2 - Close off the oil holes.
3 - Extend the OD of the bush so the babbit will be longer to allow for machining.






Heating up everything before doing the pour


Pour done:


Core and collar removed. One can see how the length and thrust face was cast oversize to allow for machining.


I'll see if I can get the bush in the lathe tomorrow. The proof to see how successful the pour really turned out will be when I machine it...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 11:01:09 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Self-Certified Professional Engine Lover
    • View Profile
    • Get your spares back!
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2015, 08:11:50 PM »
The second casting also came out nice. Before casting this one I had to catch the first one's shavings and make a thicker core. The first one was very thirsty for molten babbit. 





While machining I caught the shavings in a cloth - it's very easy to get the shaving contaminated so I won't recommend doing this.


It took a very long time to get the taper and diameter right - but I got it perfect.
TIP: Don't ever hone or sand babbit. Because the babbit is so soft, very fine abrasive particles can become embedded in the babbit surface.


Cutting oil groove:


ALL DONE!!


The bores are crank dia +0.04mm = 50.77mm
Flanges are 9mm. My worn bush measured thicker than a new one, so I erred on the safe side and made it 0.8mm thicker than what it was. I can always shim the housings or machine the faces again after measuring the crank end-float.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 11:12:30 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3141
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2015, 08:57:14 PM »
Impressive work!  I know I would never have that much patience unless there was no alternative part available.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

M61hops

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2015, 11:04:10 PM »
Great job, Dieselsmoker, I like your style!  To me the ability to repair bushed mains makes them preferable to the roller bearing type.  What would be the worst that could happen if the bush bearings were turned from brass or aluminium ?  Would the hardness wear out the crankshaft metal?  ???                   Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Self-Certified Professional Engine Lover
    • View Profile
    • Get your spares back!
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2015, 09:59:45 AM »
Impressive work!  I know I would never have that much patience unless there was no alternative part available.

dieselgman

Thank you dieselgman. Had this not been a hobby and also a platform for experimenting with processes like the babbit pouring I always read about, I tend to agree. Patience is not my problem, time is - luckily I don't have a deadline so it works out okay. Also, I have been warned by how many people that a Lister rebuild will probably turn into a money pit and so far I don't see any of that.

Great job, Dieselsmoker, I like your style!  To me the ability to repair bushed mains makes them preferable to the roller bearing type.  What would be the worst that could happen if the bush bearings were turned from brass or aluminium ?  Would the hardness wear out the crankshaft metal?  ???                   Leland

Thank you Leland. It's a well known fact that the correct aluminium- and brass alloys works very successful as bearing material. In this instance the application is the problem. With any bearing material other than babbit, uninterrupted preferably pressurized lubrication is required for a highly loaded bearing like this. Babbit has the advantage that when the bearing overheats for whatever reason (like the lack of lubrication), the babbit will melt and continue to lubricate and protect the shaft from damage. A failing white metal bearing usually gives pleeenty warning before it gives up. It will knock and smoke and moan and still work, but other bearings go out with a bang. Scroll back a few posts in this thread and have a look at the bearing I took out. It's totally scrap and not a single mark on the crank! Had this been a brass bushing the crank would have been toast along with the bearing...
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Dieselsmoker

  • If your genset fails, remeber Ps 119:105 - Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Self-Certified Professional Engine Lover
    • View Profile
    • Get your spares back!
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration (with a difference)
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2015, 10:52:41 AM »
I'm busy putting the crank in, and I suddenly realised that I have no idea what the end float tolerance is. Someone suggested 0.005" to 0.010"?
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2015, 01:24:46 PM »
Yes, the spec for end float is .005-.010.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel