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Author Topic: Another 6/1 Restoration  (Read 66101 times)

Dieselsmoker

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Another 6/1 Restoration
« on: April 18, 2015, 09:39:59 PM »
Hi.
I have been on and off busy with a 6/1 restoration for quite some time now. There are lots of problems with the engine. Plenty wear and missing/broken parts. The engine was obviously abused, and a seized camshaft ultimately put the engine out of service. It was then left outside for a loooong time... some people have zero mechanical sympathy. ??? I'm having to deal with lots of rust and grinding off thick layers of paint.

As I strip, I try to clean and repair as much as I can.
Basic progress -
Injector: Fixed and set. (Was stuck and blocked)
Diesel pump: Fixed (Was stuck and blocked)
Head: Fixed up and painted (Valves stuck, springs badly corroded)
Other parts in stages of getting painted.
Bottom end basically untouched.

Next big challenge: I will use the engine as a standby generator when I'm done with it, but with the project being just a hobby, cost is an issue for me. I don't want to do halve a job, but I will fix what can be fixed - more fun that way anyway. The cylinder bore is badly worn - apparently it is typical of high-hour engines to wear the chrome away towards the top of the cylinder near the exhaust port. There are also some scorch marks towards the top of the piston, but I'll see how bad it is once the piston's been cleaned properly, but I suspect I will be able to use the piston again. I would like to bore out the cylinder and put a liner in it, but I've been advised not to do this. Can anyone comment on past experiences with putting a liner in? Is it really impossible?

Engine when it landed at home. Doesn't look too bad? Couple of surprises waiting for me...


Mouse nest in head?


Head off


Underside head. Plenty rust.


Patience tester ;D


New style key... Some people can fix anything with a hammer.
(Notice the bolt hammered into the keyway.)


SOM Solenoid:


Serial Number:


Cleaning Piston:


Head soaked in oil - Springs rusted badly.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 09:35:52 AM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

dieselgman

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2015, 10:20:26 PM »
Nice project!

If you have a competent machine shop within reach, then the cylinder sleeve is a very good fix for the bore wear problem. Your options are basically: sleeve the old bore back to standard, bore it and use oversize piston assembly, replace it entirely.

Thanks for posting!

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2015, 10:35:52 PM »
Hi Dieselgman.
I'll clean the piston properly and report back on it's condition. I think putting a liner in is first prize when considering cost. I had a look on http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/ for a new cylinder block. The exchange rate of 18 South African Rand to the Pound plus shipping made my stomach turn!  :-\

Do you have any idea how much can be safely bored out from the cylinder to put a liner in? Are the liners usually stepped?
If it turns out that the piston is no-good, I will go oversize. I see the aftermarket oversize pistons are all aluminium. Does the light piston not upset the balancing of the engine?

Regards.
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2015, 10:55:53 PM »
@Dsmoker:
Re: boring it out to re-sleeve. Had that done with my 6/1. worked fine, lots of meat in that cylinder wall to machine out and re-sleeve back to original 4.5" bore. I did not measure the O.D. of the dry sleeve, though if memory serves, it has at least 1/8" wall thickness. There was no step in the O.D. You must use a cast iron piston for the 6/1 or your machine will be out of balance at least. Al pistons are used in the 8/1.
Cheers, Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

starfire

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2015, 10:57:39 PM »
Seriously, I would return that cylinder and piston into service as is. I have seen many worse than this that ran just fine. The wear into the chrome coating is quite normal for this age, and seems not to cause any great concern with compression loss, blowby or oil consumption issues. The money saved too, as you have found is considerable. I suggest put it together and give it a run. I think you will find its all good, and you have nothing to lose by trying it anyway. These are not a  Ferrari engine, they are an overbuilt agricultural design that will run happily with greatly out of spec tolerances, this is why they are 80 years old and still running.

mike90045

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2015, 03:13:29 AM »
re injectors

Anyone ever have any dribble coming out of that return port, that is supposed to go back to the fuel tank ?   

 I've not had a drop, and am wondering exactly what the function of the port is.  Why is it supposed to dribble, and what does it mean if it does not ?

Hugh Conway

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 03:28:47 AM »
re injectors

Anyone ever have any dribble coming out of that return port, that is supposed to go back to the fuel tank ?   

 I've not had a drop, and am wondering exactly what the function of the port is.  Why is it supposed to dribble, and what does it mean if it does not ?
The return port is to return injector internal leakage back to the fuel tank. In early versions there was small collector can instead of the tank return. I have not personally experienced this leakage, but after many hours and internal wear, I suppose it does happen.
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 02:15:37 PM »
Piston cleaning: (Camera exposure a bit slow - piston was only doing around 200 rpm)


Piston cleaned up nicely:
There is some minor pitting on the OD  due to water corrosion, but nothing to worry about.


Crown pitted due to water standing in the engine:


@Dsmoker:
Re: boring it out to re-sleeve. Had that done with my 6/1. worked fine, lots of meat in that cylinder wall to machine out and re-sleeve back to original 4.5" bore. I did not measure the O.D. of the dry sleeve, though if memory serves, it has at least 1/8" wall thickness. There was no step in the O.D. You must use a cast iron piston for the 6/1 or your machine will be out of balance at least. Al pistons are used in the 8/1.
Cheers, Hugh

I'll go speak to the guys at the local engineering shop about sleeving it. Do you know what the piston-to-bore clearance and the ring gap is? My "Lister 5/1 Spare Parts Book" indicates that the gap is 0.012" to 0.016" (0.31mm to 0.41mm). I heard that some guys use the aluminium piston in the 6/1, but that just doesn't feel right... I can imagine that scenario upsetting the engine's balance.

Seriously, I would return that cylinder and piston into service as is. I have seen many worse than this that ran just fine. The wear into the chrome coating is quite normal for this age, and seems not to cause any great concern with compression loss, blowby or oil consumption issues. The money saved too, as you have found is considerable. I suggest put it together and give it a run. I think you will find its all good, and you have nothing to lose by trying it anyway. These are not a  Ferrari engine, they are an overbuilt agricultural design that will run happily with greatly out of spec tolerances, this is why they are 80 years old and still running.

You are right about the engines being forgiving to wear. I just worry a bit about the ridge that formed where the chrome wore away. In the corresponding position on the piston there is some carbon build up just above the top ring. There was obviously some blow by - just not sure how bad. The build up could have happened over years?

I put the rings one after the other in the bottom of the bore and got these measurements:
Rings worn out...  :(
#1: 0.77mm
#2: 0.70mm
#3: 0.65mm
#4: 0.60mm
#5: 0.90mm


Bore Diameter (measured at bottom): 114.36mm to 114.38mm
The top of the bore measured 114.44mm (0.07mm Taper)
The spot where the chrome is gone: 114.60mm


I measured the piston with a Vernier. Unfortunately I don't have an outside Micrometer big enough.


Check Vernier size with micrometer: 114.15 (I'll still confirm this size later, but it can't be far off.)
Thus, piston to bore clearance is: 114.37 - 114.15 = 0.22
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 05:24:14 PM by Dieselsmoker »
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

mike90045

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2015, 05:22:26 AM »
Anybody - Any thoughts on ceramic piston coatings ?  on the top face of the piston ? 

millman56

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2015, 07:22:30 AM »
Not much point really, might make decarbonising easier though.

Mark.

dieselgman

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2015, 02:06:50 PM »
We had that coating applied to some 18/1 pistons for a client. Most likely no real benefit besides reducing combustion deposits. I will report here when we get anything back from this experiment. We also did skirt coating with a Teflon dry film... should be interesting at the least.



dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

AdeV

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2015, 06:11:54 PM »
Coating the piston of a normally aspirated engine won't do much for it. Typically, coatings are used to reduce heat rejection through the piston to the oil. In a typical multi-cylinder auto engine (and a race engine specifically, which was my interest), coated pistons/heads can actually reduce power because more heat is retained in the cylinder, which reduces the amount of fresh fuel/air charge that can be accommodated on the next stroke. Turbocharged engines, on the other hand, benefit because of the extra heat going into the turbine gives it a bit more power; and the compressor boost overcomes the lack of charge capacity; so coat pistons/heads in turbo applications, but not Normally Aspirated applications...

I have no idea if the above is a crock or not, because I don't have any way of comparing coated vs. not coated; but after speaking to numerous piston manufacturers AND coatings companies, they all said basically the same thing.

Now, coating the skirt with a teflon or molybdenum coating - that IS worth doing (in a race engine) as it reduces friction = more available power. In a big single cyl slow-speed diesel, I suspect the HP gains would be minuscule and the extra power would never "pay off" the cost of the coating - but the reduced friction and hence reduced wear would certainly give a longer bore life. Given the age of our engines, and the fact that - apart from the dubious Indian clones - no new barrels are being made, it might be worth coating a piston skirt just to put off the inevitable day when you have to bore & sleeve your cylinder barrel.
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

dieselgman

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2015, 01:39:38 AM »
Ade, I think you are right. These pistons are being run in an oversized Listeroid (18/1) with turbocharger for what it is worth.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

Dieselsmoker

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 02:02:12 PM »
I have been doing some window shopping for parts:
I will appreciate some comments or ideas of other sources, or experiences with the shops listed. (PM me if you have warnings!)
  • I found a Lister agent not too far away from me that do deliveries at a reasonable cost, but the parts come at a heavy price premium...
  • You probably all know http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/ in the UK. Nice website, plenty parts in stock and I got some decent advise from Steve. I have already imported a handfull of small items like the valve springs, valve stem caps, oils seals and so on from him. I have some items in my wishlist that I will soon order.
  • In Australia I found http://www.oldtimerengines.com.au/. Way more parts available than what are on the website. Contact there is Craig, and as he pointed out to me, the shipping cost kills the purpose of the exercise. Same as with stationaryengineparts, only the smaller and lighter items are suitable for airmail. I am waiting for my final quote from him.
  • Listeroid manufacturer http://lister-petter.devprecisionengineers.com/lister.htm in India is also busy quoting me. I got a quote from them previously and the stuff was dirt cheap... I never followed through with the exercise to determine the cost landed at my door, but that will now be done.
I'm hoping to take my cylinder to the engineering shop tomorrow afternoon to discuss the re-sleeving with them and also get a quote if they are up to the job. I don't think I'll get much chance to get my hands dirty with rust and diesel this weekend as I will start with wiring in my mains changeover switch. We are getting some load shedding at the moment and I'm not too keen on the backfeeding idea, so I'll make it safe and legal to connect my noisy petrol generator to the DB. How I wish this Lister was running already...
1963 Lister 6/1 genset - Restored
1942 Fairbanks-Morse ZC-208 - Restored
1945 Ruston & Hornsby PB 3HP - To be restored
1954 John Deere 40-S - Current project

dieselspanner

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Re: Another 6/1 Restoration
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 10:45:30 PM »
I have just ordered an injector pump, high pressure pipe, injector and all the banjo bolts from Dev Precision, total cost 60 plus 25 p & p, delivered to France, paid by Paypal, 8 / 10 days delivery.

If anyone is interested I'll post up when they arrive

A rebuild of my existing pump and injector was quoted at 155 in the UK

This is on Ebay UK opening at 85 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/C-A-V-Fuel-Injection-Pump-Lister-CS-Stationary-Engine-New-Unused-Old-Stock-/261853696866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cf7b25362

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.