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Author Topic: All In  (Read 15756 times)

mcreeferson

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Re: All In
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2015, 02:42:56 AM »
Very nice.... don't forget to mask the edge connectors on the dimm's before u spray them.... is that the 12gb model or the 32gb model... Lol... ;D ;D ;D

Ha! Took me a second to catch your meaning. One of my many hats is IT, that room, my office/lab/shop is currently brimming with gear. A couple servers being built, a new work station for the floor, plus my own workstation and a management terminal. There are screens, wires, and blinking lights everywhere, except that one little corner, in which the Listroid sits. Second comment out of first-time visitor's mouths, after the one about how many monitors I have on my desk, is usually something like "Is that a steam engine?".  ???

listard-jp2

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Re: All In
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2015, 08:23:40 AM »
I have a few questions and observations. Apart from the conversion to direct injection. I would be very interested to know what other modifications the Indians have done to the original CS design to be able to extract 18 BHP from this engine (the original Lister CS started life with just 5 BHP).

Clearly the Indian design has increased bore and stroke, but to cope with the increased stresses that direct injection (when compared to the original Lister CS indirect injection engine) places on the wrist pin and big end bearing journals it would be interesting to know if these have been increased in diameter from the original Lister dimensions (wrist pin 1.25" diameter, big end 2.5" diameter).

Also are the main bearings on a white metal bush or a taper roller bearing arrangement?

It is also interesting to note the other changes the Indians have made to the cylinder block. The water jacket inspection plates now seem to not be present, no doubt a cost reduction measure very similar with the last of the original Lister 8/1 and 16/2 engines, except that Lister engines used core plugs in place of the water jacket inspection plates.

Also knowing the problems experienced in the past with head gaskets, it will be interesting to see what happens with this engine, as it is a 4 bolt head, and presumably the increase in bore size has had the effect of reducing the sealing area of the head gasket.

The design of the direct injection cylinder head is interesting, does this Indian cylinder head rely upon a shrouded inlet valve to promote turbulence?

However, the conversion of Lister CS engines to direct injection is not a new Indian development. Listers and Ruston Hornsby were experimenting with this feature in the 1930's, see these threads:

http://www.stationary-engine.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39220

http://www.stationary-engine.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39519

The results of this experimentation then led to the design of this Ruston Hornsby engine (Lister and Ruston Hornsby were briefly in collaboration at this point in time) :


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ruston-VRH-VRHL-VRHN-VRHZ-3-4-Cylinder-parts-list-original-/321208306913#ht_139wt_1312

Apart from the presence of more cylinder head bolts (the Lister version was based on a JP engine). You will note the similarities between the Indian and the Ruston Hornsby VRH / Lister JP cylinder head.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 02:20:09 PM by listard-jp2 »

dieselgman

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Re: All In
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2015, 02:18:23 PM »
I can answer your questions... but will take some time to take close measurements and pictures of the details. I prefer to do it that way because I have found the other written details on these to contain many errors.

The crankshafts have heavy internal counterbalance weights, and they are situated in tapered roller bearings. The flywheels are slightly smaller diameter and quite a bit heavier than any of the other flywheel offerings.
The combustion chamber is a hollow in the piston crown, and these are using a wet sleeve cylinder liner arrangement.

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listard-jp2

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Re: All In
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2015, 02:31:05 PM »
/\ Thanks, that would be appreciated.

I thought it was taper roller main bearings. But due to the limitations on crankshaft journal size created by the presence of the crankshaft timing gear, the taper roller bearing cannot be much heavier duty than its smaller listeriod cousins?

Also have the valve head diameters increased from the original CS size.

mcreeferson

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Re: All In
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2015, 11:40:36 AM »
Clearly the Indian design has increased bore and stroke, but to cope with the increased stresses that direct injection (when compared to the original Lister CS indirect injection engine) places on the wrist pin and big end bearing journals it would be interesting to know if these have been increased in diameter from the original Lister dimensions (wrist pin 1.25" diameter, big end 2.5" diameter).

The wrist pin on my unit measures 1.377, and the big end 2.753.

Also are the main bearings on a white metal bush or a taper roller bearing arrangement?

These are tapered rollers, pretty hefty ones (~.675 dia. rollers).

38ac

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Re: All In
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2015, 02:00:52 PM »


Also have the valve head diameters increased from the original CS size.


Yes they are larger.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

listard-jp2

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Re: All In
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2015, 03:48:48 PM »
The wrist pin on my unit measures 1.377, and the big end 2.753.

Wrist pin wear on original lister CS 6/1 engines was always apparent on high running hour examples, so for an engine developing 3x the power, an increase of .125" is not alot (particuarly been as it is direct injection as this will place a lot more load on the wrist pin bush), it will be interesting to see the longevity of these items on high running hour engines. For comparison the Lister CE and JP range have 1.5" and 1.625" diameter wrist pins, and wear was seldom apparent on these engines.

Yes they are larger.

Its quite possible that the valves are the same size as the Indian version of Lister JP valves (as they are identical to the CS version apart from valve head diameter), making this an off the shelf item for the Indians.

mcreeferson

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Re: All In
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2015, 04:02:54 PM »


Also have the valve head diameters increased from the original CS size.


Yes they are larger.

Looks like 1.7 and 2 inch diameters on those valves...

mcreeferson

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Re: All In
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2015, 06:05:13 PM »
One more step on the road to smoke. I whipped up a set of needle bearing roller followers out of tool steel. They need just a little cleaning up and I'll move on to getting the camshaft components cut and built up...

EdDee

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Re: All In
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2015, 07:27:26 AM »
Hi McR,

Nice job on those followers - add champion machinist to your qualifications - Quick question - are they for IP/Oil Pump or valves..... If valves, you are aware that changing from flat follower to roller follower changes the open/close/dwell/acceleration/characteristics of motion for the valve train(Possibly not so much to be of concern)?

Just a thought...

Regds
Ed
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listard-jp2

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Re: All In
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2015, 08:27:11 AM »

/\ Injector pump cam follower. +1 on a nice job, but I would like to know if your needle roller bearing is running on a hardened shaft?

Does this engine have an oil pump or is it splash lubrication? I ask this because if it has an oil pump, on original single cylinder Lister CS engines, this follower is the one that will always wear out first, due to the marginal lubrication it gets.


mcreeferson

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Re: All In
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2015, 12:36:55 AM »
Hi McR,

Nice job on those followers - add champion machinist to your qualifications - Quick question - are they for IP/Oil Pump or valves..... If valves, you are aware that changing from flat follower to roller follower changes the open/close/dwell/acceleration/characteristics of motion for the valve train(Possibly not so much to be of concern)?

Just a thought...

Regds
Ed

They are for the valves. After reading 38ac's build thread, and learning about those indian valve trains, I decided I was going to make a big project bigger (as is may way) and fabricate an entirely new camshaft and lifter setup rather than try and make do with what I had. Necessary? No. But again, it is a weakness of mine to overdo things. I will make a new shaft and lobes to suit.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 12:38:40 AM by McReeferson »

mcreeferson

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Re: All In
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2015, 12:45:06 AM »

/\ Injector pump cam follower. +1 on a nice job, but I would like to know if your needle roller bearing is running on a hardened shaft?

Does this engine have an oil pump or is it splash lubrication? I ask this because if it has an oil pump, on original single cylinder Lister CS engines, this follower is the one that will always wear out first, due to the marginal lubrication it gets.



Yes, the shaft is hardened.

The plan is to eliminate the stock oil pump, replace it with something I have a bit more faith in, and do a little work creating a system to distribute the oil in a bit more controlled manner.

EdDee

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Re: All In
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2015, 09:09:50 AM »
Hi McR,

Just a thought.... New/better oil pump...Roller Followers....What about modding a set of hydraulic lifters to do an auto shutdown if oil pressure is low.... Also, they would be self setting and with the little hydraulic cushioning I think they would be much quieter too on the tappet end.....

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

mcreeferson

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Re: All In
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2015, 09:38:18 AM »
Hi McR,

Just a thought.... New/better oil pump...Roller Followers....What about modding a set of hydraulic lifters to do an auto shutdown if oil pressure is low.... Also, they would be self setting and with the little hydraulic cushioning I think they would be much quieter too on the tappet end.....

Regds
Ed

That sounds cool, but my knowledge of hydraulic lifters is, well, I don't know anything about them. Maybe an added feature down the road if I get the mechanics of this working...