In need of advice from those that have been there done that.

[BigCountry]

HI everyone I am glad to have found this forum, hours of good reading.  I am looking for some advice. I am planning an off grid home and after countless hours of research I have came to the conclusion that the generator is going to be the heart and soul of the system if you want consistent reliable power. I have looked at everything from steam to gasification and keep coming back to the lister/listeroid diesel for my application. I will add solar eventually but will start with a genset, batteries, and inverter. I will also be recovering the exahaust heat for heating/hotwater. The more I read online the more contradicting info I find. Basically everything from listers being the best choice to the worst choice. I realize there is no magic bullet but would like some input.

The price of a DES Listeroid plus shipping then the time, misc to rebuild, etc. puts me pretty close to some new modern engines with warranty. Are the listeroids really as long lasting as they claim? What about trouble free? I want something that once I go though it if I change the oil, do annual maintenance, eventually rebuild, will last a long time. The last thing I need is something that I am constantly messing with, repairing etc. Any Thoughts?

My plan would be to run the listeroid 4-5 hrs day. I would manually start/stop every day so I would be able to check fluids, misc regularly. I would not be able to baby sit it while it ran so I would have some auto safety shut offs built in. I am a HVAC service tech and very mechanically inclined have rebuilt motors, transmissions, etc. The objective here is K.I.S.S I am heavily leaning towards the Listeroid 8/1 for my application, but want to make sure I'm not getting caught up in the romance of the lister.


Dave

[Hugh Conway]

Hello Dave:
I am 2 years into off-grid here. Started with gen set, batteries, inverter. Added solar a few months later. It is a 24V 4000W system.
Using a 6/1 listeroid with a 3kw generator. (It is a now unobtainable PMG, but a 5Kw ST seems the most common choice.)This combination has proved to have sufficient power for both house and shop. I can run table saw, planer, bandsaw, etc. with no problem. biggest single draw is a 3/4Hp deep well pump.
We also operate a fridge and 2 freezers in addition to all the usual stuff.
We start/stop manually, and I am always somewhere on the property when the engine is running.
The engine sits in a partially enclosed shed. Too far from the house to use engine heat, and in any case, a two hour charging run will not fully warm up my 30 gallon cooling tank.
On days that require charging, a 2 hour run is sufficient to put my batteries at 100%. In the Pacific Northwest, our use is about 350 hours a year.
After the initial tear-down, reassembly, and sorting out, the system has been trouble free, except for the odd time I have forgotten to fill the
fuel tank!
We are in a rural area. There is grid electrical service available, but we chose to disconnect. There are frequent winter power outages here, several neighbours have standby generators.......you can tell when the power is off from the noise of their Modern, high speed gen sets. Our Listeroid is not audible at their homes though, and sometimes the neighbours drop by to hear (and watch) it run.
As well as the K.I.S.S. practicality, fuel economy, ease of repair, there IS the "romance" of the Lister.....you WILL get caught up in it.
I had to buy a real Dursley.......for no good reason except as a "standby" for the JKSON.

I'm sure you will hear from others regarding your questions, many have more experience than I.

Cheers,
Hugh
Feel free to PM me for more.

[mike90045]

links in my .sig cover a lot of the install.    I have a metro (1sump) with a electric starter.  I took 2 years to get a battery rigged up, hand cranking is hard below freezing, the crankcase oil is just so thick.  Head gasket has been my thorn, and now, possibly, carbon buildup, which maybe water injection can cure or pull the head and hope I can reuse the gasket.
 My "modern" Subaru/Hatz diesel genset lasted 50 hours, before the governor "broke in" so well, I was at 68Hz and 280V and my inverter would not sync to it anymore. Adjustments not covered under warranty.   But just a 6 hr drive to the repair center.  each way.

For Site prep, I poured 12" slab and let it cure before drilling and installing epoxy anchors with SS all-thread.
My off grid inverter is a XW-6048, which easily qualifies the 6/1 power with flicker. I charge a 48V NiFe battery bank at about 2500watts, because I'm at 1,400' and don't want to have "throttle to the wall".

solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,
battery lugs http://tinyurl.com/LMR-BigLug
Setting up batteries http://tinyurl.com/LMR-NiFe

gear :
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||

|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||

[32 coupe]

I'm have a changfa clone turning a 15kw head.
I also have 2 "listeroids". A single and a twin.

The changfa is a loud, noisey, bangn', clangn' engine that hasn't
let me down yet. I did rebuild the water pump. It gets great fuel
economy but not much "sex appeal".

The listeroids are just a thing of "grace and beauty".  Mine run great
after many hours of work and "tinkering".

I personally don't know if would trust any of them long-term.  A real
lister, yes I think I would.  The clones just are that, a clone. Junk metal,
crappy machining and all the rest.

As I said earlier,  my changfa has never let me down. I ran it loaded for a
3 day stretch and other than the fuel tank destroying itself never missed
a beat.

With said my latest project is a 3cyl mitsubishi diesel tied to a 7.5 kw ST head.
I believe the modern engine will provide that reliable service with less fead
of the dreaded breakdown.

Nothing will replace the novel sound and appeal of the listeroid. I just don't
know about the long run.  We have seen failures at 5 minutes,  5 hours, 5 months
and 5 years.  I am well aware that anything can fail at any time. I just believe, for
me anyway,  that for the way I use my equipment,  the modern engine is the
way to go.

I'll amble off now,
Gary

[Hugh Conway]

I'm also a beekeeper. there' a saying " ask 5 beekeepers a question, get 9 different answers"..........guess it can apply here as well!

I second Mike's comment on hard cranking in cold weather. On the JKSON, I use a friction starter which was mounted and operational in a couple of hours.
OTOH, my Dursley with heavy flywheels starts up pretty much just by looking at it with intent. Very little cranking effort required.

One of my friends uses a Chinese horizontal. It is better built than a Listeroid, though quite noisy and butt ugly, works great though. The Listers and clones are as Gary says, "a thing of grace and beauty"......."ye pays yer money and takes yer choice." I find  6Hp quite adequate, think there is not much else in way of low power diesel available.

I have been collecting a fairly good assortment of spares, and these engines are very easy to work on, so short of a catastrophic failure (and they do happen sometimes) should be OK

Cheers,
Hugh

[LowGear]

Nice thread.

I'd have to guess that you're doing heat things with propane.  Cooking and final hot water polish for example.  A clean running low maintenance propane fueled engine for back-up would be in my plan if not the primary mover.  Let's not forget that besides their soul and grace of the Lister phenomenon is they're ability to burn salvage fuels.

Casey 

[dieselgman]

If you have a budget for modern and new... there are many great choices out there that have reasonably high dependability and will give great service. However, for pure longevity and flexibility, none of them come close to an original Lister in my opinion. I have worked on too many of them when broken down including Japanese, German, Korean... and some major brands that are now made in various parts of the 3rd World - (Talking about John Deere, Caterpillar, Cummins). Most of them have fairly short design life - 10,000 hour and maybe 20,000 for their better premium versions... all have failure points and weaknesses. None of them have the simplicity and character of a true Lister. In just pure economics, the day of the Lister as a mainstream contender is clearly long over... but the strength of the old technology is such that even the clones are proving viable for those who are willing to make the time and effort investment in getting them properly restored and set up. We often feel we are doing this for posterity as well. This equipment will certainly outlive us by a considerable margin if it is taken care of properly.

dieselgman

[Hugh Conway]

I wholly agree with Gary (dieselgman); If you wanted a slightly more modern and extremely reliable Lister, he often has refurbished engines for sale. An air cooled SR2 might be something to look at. They are hand/electric start, very robust, medium rpm range, and will run for ever as well. I have one in my project line-up that I scrounged of a small island locally. Had one in a boat many years ago......it always worked......always!

Too many choices!!!

Cheers,
Hugh

[32 coupe]

Hugh,
I agree. I would go with a "builder" from Gary.
Not the romance of the CS but a darn good choice !

Gary

[BigCountry]

Thank You for all the great replies so far. Some good points to ponder. I will have at least some propane, but would like to keep the primary heat/power source an easier to find fuel so in a bind there would be locally available fuel or substitutes with little to no modification.

Dave

[cujet]

The Listeroid single cylinder engine is a simple device, and it's possible to keep it running for long periods of time with regular maintenance. However, I strongly dispute the "facts" that are so often claimed. There is no way a listeroid engine is a 40,000 hour engine. The quality of the components is bottom of the barrel low and the design is nowhere near perfect.

One read through the forums will illustrate that the engines are far from trouble free. They are, in fact, a tinkerers toy.

A previous member (Hotater) a qualified machinist and gunsmith used his blueprinted listeroid for all his power needs. If I recall correctly, the engine's lifespan was in the neighborhood of 1600-2000 hours. At which point, comprehensive repair and overhaul was required. Even with improvements, tinkering and replacements, the lifespan issue remained.

A more honest view of the listeroid is this. There are precious few 6HP commercial diesel engines. The 6/1 is reasonably efficient and fills a need for a low output, low fuel consumption, diesel generator. When compared to a typical gasoline generator of similar output, the fuel consumption is far lower and the lifespan "might" be better.

However, there are RV owners with major hours on cheap, Chinese, Champion 4000 watt generators. It's not unusual to see Champion gensets living a 10,000 hour lifespan.

[BruceM]

I live off grid (6 years) and my Listeroid 6/1 provides my AC and compressed air to a 500 gallon tank for my all air powered shop.  My primary interest was the sound, as my frazzled brain (MS, epilepsy, constant headache) can't handle the typical generator noise.   I have my own custom 120VDC battery bank and PV/AC charge controller, and use only 120VDC for everything except a washing machine and well pump. I use a propane refrigerator, and propane backup for solar hot water domestic and space heating.

If you don't mind the noise, there are plenty of modern commercial designs to chose from.  An Onan RV propane unit comes to mind.  But if you're on a budget and noise is a primary issue, there is virtually no other good choice besides the Lister CS and it's poor relations from India.  I'd love to have a Lister SOM engine, as those large flywheels dramatically improve AC quality; they reduce flicker (AC voltage and frequency variation due to engine speed variation).  

There are parts and technical support since this is a "cult" engine (popular, loyal following, always a good choice).  My engine is presently pushing 3000 hrs will be ready for a new crank bearing in another 500 hours (at 0.004 inches clearance now), but nothing else besides decarboning and replacing 2 failed thermostats. They are delightfully easy to service.  I put on about 600 hrs per year, much of that compressing air for my shop.  I think Cujet's recollection is wrong and I recall that Hotater got 1600 hours on his sand filled, uncorrected engine, not his cleaned, corrected, rebuilt one.  That was also before the valve lash issue was so well analyzed and solved by XYZer.

For a new neighbor with similar disabilities I volunteered to attempt a propane version of the CS starting with one of the DES CS 8/1 clones from India. (A 2 sump/oil pump/7 head bolt/bushing mains copy.)  While I'm not done yet, I am happy with the parts quality of this kit engine and am even more pleased with the extraordinary support from DES. We have an earth muffler (think 30 foot, 3" rock leachfield but with a holey 2" exhaust pipe inlet and a 4" PVC  outlet)  and a 1st class generator shed already in place.

Just make sure you know that the India versions are KITS, and that you must check everything and assume that nothing is right as you put it together.  38ac's article here is excellent, and just ASK a lot of questions.  If you can get an SOM engine, WOW!.  If you could get one restored by DES or 38AC, or take the time to restore it yourself properly you'd have what I think is best off grid power source ever built.

[Tom]

My engine is approaching 2100 hours. Still running the original bottom end with now wear showing on the main bearing. My engine was from early in our collective learning phase and was not torn down, just inspected for sand. Sand was found after 1k hours however none found it's way to the main bearing.

The top end was another story due mainly to defective machining on the ledge in the cylinder where the liner sits and my experimentation with dirty alternative fuels. The engines new sees around 250 hours a year charging batteries, but hopefully I'll be adding a compressor like Bruce in the near future.