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Author Topic: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice  (Read 7071 times)

George A

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Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« on: January 26, 2015, 04:30:47 AM »
I have a Vidhata 6/1 nicely mounted on a steel I beam roll around frame and have built it into a 2500 watt generator unit. Construction is just about finished except for a cooling system and that's where I'd like to get some input. I was originally going to use a tank/thermosiphon system but now I'm leaning towards a more compact, modern configuration.......a radiator. Now, I've only test run this engine so far and cooled it with a garden hose for water circulation, with the flow turned down to a trickle.....so I really don't know how much cooling is required.

I've seen at least one unit that used the radiator from a Honda Goldwing motorcycle that I thought was really good as the radiators are inexpensive and plentiful. Only thing is they're small, perhaps 11" x 9" and the one I saw had the radiator mounted low on the frame so he may have been using a pump (couldn't tell in the video). My setup would be up at the cylinder height and thermosiphon, but with the advantage of an electric fan.

The other option would be the radiator from a Honda civic. These too are plentiful and a new all aluminum double core can be had for around $60, again being equipped with a fan. These are much larger, in fact maybe a bit too large but it would definitely cool things.

I'd prefer the Goldwing unit, but not if the cooling is dicey. Are there any other radiators out there?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 04:33:45 AM by George A »
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BruceM

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2015, 06:18:25 AM »
It doesn't take much of a radiator for a 6/1- the motorcycle radiator would be more than adequate. Ronmar has suggested the use of a 2 or 3 computer muffin fans, for redundancy.  They are cheap and readily available, and would provide ample airflow. Price being the same, I think I would prefer AC muffin fans so a single power supply failure could not cause problems. 12V switching power supplies are very inexpensive on ebay as they are widely used.

If you don't mind a bit of tin work, you can make an induced draft for the cooling airflow instead of a fan, using the exhaust to power the airflow. 
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6197.0





George A

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2015, 09:08:35 AM »
Excellent! Thank you Bruce. You're right about the muffin fans too......better to have them operate off the generated A.C. than have a 12 volt battery to worry about.
I've joined "the dark side"....if it has a spark plug, it's obsolete technology.

BruceM

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2015, 02:58:33 PM »
Good points, Glort.

For my new neighbor's DES 8/1 project (propane conversion), I'm planning an earth muffler (much like a section of septic leach field). Thus I can't use induced draft.

I'm thinking of using a thermal chimney (tin) with a new tilted Civic auto radiator ($27 on Amazon).  This will give the owner the ability to unbelt the generator when doing large compressed air jobs.  Alternately, I could do 12VDC computer muffin fans off battery, as there will be ample 12V battery and PV. The engine shed serves other power and communications purposes so there is plenty of 12V as well as 120VDC.








George A

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2015, 06:25:49 PM »
You know, I dismissed the induced draft idea at first mostly because of the place where I have to permanently install my unit. The more I look at it though, I like it.........and you're right, Rumley did get it right! :)

Now, where'd I put those tin snips?
I've joined "the dark side"....if it has a spark plug, it's obsolete technology.

ronmar

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 01:33:17 AM »
If you use the smaller radiator, you may need to raise it a little higher than the top of the cylinere head to assist thermosiphon. 

The issue I have with a large radiator if you don't employ some fan/air control is the same issue I have with drum cooling.  The large radiator is capable of providing too much cooling.  this will cause the thermostat to cycle and the engine to continously gulp cold coolant instead of stabelizing at a steady flow and temperature.  This happens on semi's in the winter.  they have a monster radiator to allow them to cross the desert in summer, but in winter it provides waaay too much cooling.  That is why you see the covers with zippers over the grills of big rigs in the winter.  The zipper allows the driver to adjust the airflow thru the radiator to match the heat output and maintain steady coolant flow thru the system without removing too much heat from the coolant.
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xyzer

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2015, 04:05:27 AM »
Large vs small radiator and issues I have encountered. My first listeroid had a fair size radiator out off a saturn mounted at an angle to aid in some thermal flow. I found it would protect the engine under full load without the aid of the fan. I also learned the small 1/16" hole in the thermostat removed the gulp effect. The engine will slowly heat up at a steady rate. I don, t believe the thermostat even opens untill the water intake temperature reaches the elevated temperature. The hole size may vary in each application but start out with no hole and enlarge it to your liking.  The hole also aids in filling without  air pockets. My second listeroid I used a geo metro radiator. It is vertically  mounted on the same plane as the flywheels. I will eventually drive a fan wit a belt from the crank like some of the originals were configured.  It currently has the metro electric fan in place for backup. On a breezy day it will not over heat outside but on a calm day or indoors the fan is needed. New style radiators are not designed for the best thermal siphon performance. A larger tank mounted above the whole system is a must. This is your reserve capacity. If the water level ever drops below the upper radiator inlet the thermal siphon ceases and it will get hot fast! Thermal siphon radiators like the model T had a large tank above the return line.
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BruceM

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2015, 03:31:26 PM »
Good point on the new radiators and thermosiphon, Dave.  I'm a bit concerned about my bargain Civic radiator for that but the price made it irresistible.  I'll provide ample vertical spacing in hopes of making it work.  I prefer more of a hole in the thermostat, (2) 1/8 " holes.  Less hot/cold.  I also added ball valves and reduce the flow. 

3/4" Pex (slightly more than 1/2 copper on the ID) or 5/8 heater hose would be sufficient for the flow, I think. 

I also use a reservoir above the radiator, half a gallon in capacity.  No pressure.

deeiche

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2015, 12:57:18 PM »
take a look at 38ac reply in this thread,    
Radiator recommendation


old tech radiator were designed for thermal siphon

xyzer

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2015, 04:00:20 AM »
Good find deeiche! I forget some of our discussions. There are photos in the thread of the radiators and reserve tanks of my 2 setups. Finding a thermosiphon radiator is  tough....I think!?
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deeiche

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Re: Cooling system.......need some opinions/advice
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2015, 12:53:59 PM »
Good find deeiche! I forget some of our discussions. There are photos in the thread of the radiators and reserve tanks of my 2 setups. Finding a thermosiphon radiator is  tough....I think!?
finding a new JD LUC radiator isn't that hard, thanks to the antique tractor restoration crowd.  I found new one's listed for US$65.  Used ones show up two for less, there are a couple for sale Michigan CL for US$45, but I figure for $20 more ya ought to go new.