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Author Topic: Water in jection decarboning  (Read 29189 times)

cujet

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2015, 01:15:04 AM »
Again, don't forget that advanced injection timing adversely affects bearing life. If it's too advanced, shock related oil cavitation is a risk (oil turns to vapor for an instant) . Over time this creates pits that grow into unusual shapes.

 





« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 01:17:49 AM by cujet »
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Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2015, 03:14:09 PM »
6300 hr. Well I'm confused I've been injecting but now have that loud hammer noise after 500 hr in the past I was able to clear it up with injecting but I guess I'll have to take apart today. Ha ha you worry about hydro locking well the other day I forgot to take my drip line out of intake and I must have emptied the bottle in to engine it started but painted my yard with black juice. I prolly have water in oil, oh well stuff happens.
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2015, 02:09:41 PM »
I'm figurin the reason it carboned up so quick was I never used RUG in my last batch of wvo usually I would use 5 gal  jet fuel and 5 gal rug to a 45 gal barrel of wvo . Not sure if my link works or not but you can see a depression left by the intake valve. And the ruff part just east of there must have been where the piston was smacking the head due to the carbon build up. No wonder it sounds like some one tapping on there with a hammer.

http://s106.photobucket.com/user/MRx_04/library/

« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 02:33:38 PM by Mr X »
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

veggie

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2015, 07:24:47 PM »
Cujet,

Are those pictures from a Gasoline engine?
Theoretically, changing the timing of a diesel injector has only a minute effect on the point at which ignition takes place.
Most diesels can accept an injection anywhere from 14 deg. to 22 deg. before TDC with little adverse effect.
The actual ignition can only take place when the mixture (air/oil) reaches a certain combustion chamber pressure/temperature which is usually the same regardless of injection timing.

To put it another way, an early injection should ignite at approximately the same time as a later injection on compression ignition engines.
Advance injection should not cause pre-ignition.

I could be wrong here, feel free to pipe in anyone.  :)

cheers,
veggie
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dieselgman

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2015, 08:32:59 PM »
Veggie,  Injection timing has a fairly dramatic effect on how well the air/fuel mixture ignites/burns and also on internal engine stresses developed during combustion. Best bet is to keep it within manufacturer's specs.

X, you might want to take a careful look at how your valve timing and clearances are set up. If you are starting with very tight clearances (valve face to piston crown), then even a very small carbon buildup can result in immediate hammering on the valve face. There are a lot of factors involved including variances in the cam lobes and their timing placements... differing valve lengths and depth in the head, bump height of your piston crown and different rocker arm geometries that can all contribute to or directly cause clearance issues.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 08:34:36 PM by dieselgman »
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Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2015, 05:33:49 PM »
You guys go on about changing things but I ain't going to change a thing. If you read the early part of this thread you'd see I was only getting 100 or so hr befor the hammering would begin and I'd have to de carbon. I did quit well this time at 500 hr. But I did a 1000 the last clean up . That is when I discoveered injecting water but I also was putting rug and jet in my fuel, only this time did I not put rug in and so I'm thinking it showed in carbon ing up quicker only time will tell as I have now rug and will continue to inject h2o. And not redesigned my engine. Thank you though for the thought. X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

dieselgman

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2015, 07:55:15 PM »
I presume you have a clone or Listeroid... it is fairly common for them to be out of spec, so the suggestion had nothing to do with "re-designing" the engine - rather bringing it into proper adjustment. If you were only getting 100 to 500 hours without a carbon knock, this tends to suggest a problem of some sort.

Even when using alternative fuels I would hope to get at least 1,000 hours without requiring a de-carbon job.

Best of luck!

dieselgman
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 07:57:56 PM by dieselgman »
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32 coupe

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2015, 12:56:43 AM »
"I ain't gonna change a thing"
Ha, gotta love it !
I am certainly no expert, but will say that it is amazing what small changes will
make in engine performance.  
When I read about exhaust fluff and carbon knock I have to think their must be
more to the story.
My Metro only has a couple of hundred hours on it and I have had no problems. These
hours were spent running with a pretty heavy load, in the 3 to 4 k area,  and have found
a few degrees of timing will make a world of difference in performance.  Yes, I said 4k load.
At that load she is pulling hard and starting to put out black smoke. Never ran for long at that
load but think the engine would be fine for extended runs with no problem. I watch temp and
fuel consumption while running.
With that said, I will add that after a hundred or so of "play time" I got serious about timing
and discovered.that 2 or 3 degrees of timing change will make a noticeable difference in
performance.
Carbon knock, black puffy exhaust.....knowing what I now know, after checking fuel delivery
my next move would be a serious look at timing. I never trust factory marks and will make my
own using a dial indicator to determine true TDC.

I'm just say'n. ......

Gary


« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 01:31:55 AM by 32 coupe »
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Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2015, 01:59:27 PM »
I have had my Listeroid since 2006 and have struggled through a great learning curve. I have done everything I can think of that would have destroyed moste modern day diesels, I ran it out of oil 2-3 times, over heated it a few times ran it with carbon knock for way to long. I seized it up once and had to change the liner. But still she hangs in ther and loves me unconditionally. I have 6350 hr on it so far all this time running on WVO. Last winter I burned 6- 45 gal barrels of wvo. I can not afford to run nice clean diesel in it. So thus I have to put up with carbon residue left behind by my dirty fuel.
   A side note here to let u know how carbonatious this WVO is. I was heating my dog kennel this winter with wvo/jet fuel 50/50 mix. It was burning in an old oil stove of 40s 50s vintage. With diesel or jet fuel normal clean out time of the fire pot would be once month maybe 2 butt with my wvo/jet it was every 4 days and even that was pushing it. I had to make some special clean out tools like miniture fireplace tools to do this. It is just too hard on my vacume.
    Any way guys I'll consider looking at my timing.
   I may hav discovered a new trick. When cleaning out hardend on carbon I noticed that Methyalhydrate would make carbon pop and crackle, not sure but think it releases the bond between the surfaces and loosens it. I tried this yesterday when I shut it down It took only seconds to do I loosened the injector mount and squirted a small syringe of Methyalhydrate in and tightened the injector. Left it a few hr and fired it up. I found there was a great reduction in knock. And an abnormal amount of black smoke for a min or two.
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

dieselgman

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2015, 04:42:06 PM »
Bravo! You are a very good ambassador for the strengths of the old Lister design! Also, very good at sticking to it in the face of adversity! I know a lot of people that would toss the whole project after just one or two setbacks!

dieselgman
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32 coupe

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2015, 08:28:49 PM »
When I worked at a Chevy dealership in the 70's we got quite a few cars in that would be
"carboned up".They would be the cars driven by little old ladies to the store. I remember the
first time I heard it I didn't know what the hell it was.
One of the "old timers" said he would help me "fix" the problem after he returned from lunch.
He gets back, goes over to the car, removes the air cleaner,  starts the  engine and while running
it about half throttle pours a can of beer into the carb. We used the exhaust hoses on the
rear of the car so I couldn't see the crap coming out but I sure could hear it. That thing got quiet
and smoothed right out.
He swore it was the alcohol in the beer that did the job.

Just one of those things I wil never forget. I have done it a time or 2 and will add that it works
quite well.

Just say'n. ...


Gary


Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2015, 02:51:09 PM »
Yesterday I took a few minutes and redesigned my water injector so far. I like . And yes just the other day I put methealhyydrate in my injection fluid but with my crude injector when the tip pluged off I'd have to suck to clear it and the methanol tasted terrible and I don't want to poison my self. So I'll take some pics later and you can see the new and improved injector, and no need to suck.

X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2015, 02:26:03 PM »
Pics of new injector http://s106.photobucket.com/user/MRx_04/library/ my new injector is a lot more consistent. Some times with the other one it would choke off and slow down if not stop. Thus the need for sucking. This the water enters from the bottom of the jug and seems a lot more unstoppable the black thing is a valve from drip irrigation . I took the rubber plunger out of the syringe and punched a hole through to fit the dripper valve..I drilled a hole to fit needel coller in 1 1/2 abs which fits the motor intake with a rubber 90. The next is just hooking up hose and your done. Set the drip and you'll see a nice spray from the needle tip. Can't remember gauge of needel think 18 or 22 1 1/2 in. Hope it works well.

X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2015, 02:15:01 PM »
Not exactly on the subject but related to carbon build up I changed the injector tip and what a difference it makes no more smoke while running and my rpm has come back up to what it was set at 61 hz. I couldn't figure out why there was so much loud knocking even though I was injecting but I guess if your fuel is atomizing instead of squirting then it should run a lot better. I looked on line for ideas of injector tester and I'm going to build one, I have a spare jack and a gauge probably most of the plumbing parts. So when I get a chance I'll make one. It would be easy to check injectors every other oil change and avoid one of the problems that come with burning WVO.

X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

32 coupe

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2015, 04:17:35 PM »
Good deal !!
Rather making a tester you already have one. Remove the injector,  reattach to the high
pressure line and spin the engine over. If your pump is good you will see the results.

Gary

« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:34:08 PM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"