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Author Topic: Water in jection decarboning  (Read 29186 times)

dieselgman

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2015, 11:58:05 PM »
George,

Sorry to hear you experienced the problem with using the heavy gear-oil. Not likely to be much more than a nuisance until you can get it cleared up again with lighter oil. Is your ambient temperature fairly low? That heavy stuff would probably be OK in the tropics or the summertime... don't really know how it will perform in the rings and cylinders though. The EP additives in gear oils were not designed for combustion chambers and engine internals.

WCEAPS strikes again ! ... I have to say I like the guy, mainly because he seems to be a bit off the beaten path - like me. But buyer beware when it comes to faulty logic or inaccurate technical conclusions and just plain common sense - or lack thereof!

dieselgman
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 03:05:07 AM by dieselgman »
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George A

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2015, 10:27:21 AM »
Oh, I'm sure once the "normal" oil gets circulated things will be fine...just brain fade on my part and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Our temps have warmed up a bit out here in northern California so I'm tempted to attempt starting again, but having just had back surgery about two weeks ago that's probably not a very good idea. Time to get that beefy stepson of mine over here again!  ;D

I just noticed the post above, regarding copper coated bearings. Never heard of such a thing. Copper is a "snaggy" metal, tending to catch cutting tools unless it's very hard, so it doesn't sound like much of a bearing material. Until someone proves these bearings to be something revolutionary I'll stick to either babbit lined or poured, thank you.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 10:31:35 AM by George A »
I've joined "the dark side"....if it has a spark plug, it's obsolete technology.

dieselgman

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2015, 02:43:11 PM »
Copper is commonly used in steel backed engine bearings, but not as the facing material (only as an intermediate bonding layer). We have had bearings come out of manufacturing before as mistakes with copper as the final layer - we chose to discard because of that error.

dieselgman
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Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2015, 02:54:47 PM »
Our Connecting Rod Big End Bearing Shells are (Special Ordered) custom made with Copper. This same style bearing is also used on many Twin Cylinder Engines for the Crankshafts Center Support. 99% of all Listeroid engines will use these 2.500 inch bearing shells. The remaining 1% will have an odd size of 2.000 inches.

Sorry about advertising for the fellow but I bought some of these I'm a bit afraid to try them along with some of the other info on his sight. I would hate to get my next 1000 hr in and fined out I destroyed my crank. What ever happened to the rod plain bearings form India that didn't have the x' s carved in them I got good mileage out of them. And yes diesel man I'd think I have contamination I just switched from stock Indian head gaskets to a gasket to go. And the next tear down will tell. With the copper gasket I was getting rust on my head bolts below my head, which shows the gasket was weeping and going into the oil. So my question Has anyone tried these copper in crusted bearings?

X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

dieselgman

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2015, 03:29:25 PM »
Bearings are inexpensive and yet quite a critical wear point in your engine. Unless you are running an experimental test-engine for some reason to prove up new parts, I recommend staying with the tried-and-true original manufacturer specifications and materials. There is no doubt that certain aspects of materials science have moved on since the inception of this technology, but modern bearing technology appears to be quite stable and adequate as used in millions of internal combustion engines around the world. Experiments are good from time-to-time to make improvements where needed and to eliminate problems... just don't sign up to be the lab rat unless you know what your risks are and want to participate in that particular exercise.

We have no knowledge of Lister ever using a copper faced intermediate main bearing on the twins. Our stock of these is made of the same materials and construction as the other stock crankshaft main bearings.

When a shell bearing of the common type is excessively worn, then the intermediate copper layer will become exposed and could appear like a copper faced bearing. If copper is exposed, time to replace the bearing - period.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 03:38:46 PM by dieselgman »
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Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2015, 03:56:41 PM »
cant figure how to import pic other wise I scraped some of the unimportant surface on the bearings I have and it seems the colour is silver. Scraped in the hole and silver all the way. No signe of copper just on the edge where the lip is roled over looks brass color. So I just mite try these. And yes Dieselgman I totally agree with u, thus my fears of copper.

X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

BruceM

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2015, 04:18:38 PM »
I use the hollow dipper method of oiling from below and switched to a solid upper bearing shell with no hole or oil channels.  They do hold up much better and the surface doesn't get damaged as my stock upper ones did.  I think this was BobG's idea and it did work very well, just as he predicted.

I'd love to find a new source for bearings with the solid upper shell, no groove or holes.  I have some for my engine but would like to do the same for the DES propane engine project.


Quinnf

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2015, 07:23:44 PM »
Yes, the solid upper bearing shell came to be after several of us concurred that the problems Jack (Hotater) was having with his 25,000 hour engine eating bearing shells resulted from failure to maintain an oil film.  The channels in the upper shell were bleeding oil film away from the surface where it was most needed.  So (I think it was) George Breckenridge, ordered some bearings with the solid upper shell, over the strident objections of the Indian supplier, and, oiling from the bottom via a hollow dipper, the problem went away.  The upper oiling holes bored in the big end of the crank were also thought to funnel any grit/dirt that might make its way down the con rod into the bearing along with the oil.  Another reason to use the hollow dipper.   

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Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2015, 09:36:35 PM »
Yah but do u know if they are still available

X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

BruceM

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2015, 11:17:36 PM »
It was a former Canadian supplier who got the bearings made and sold them, or at least thats who I got them from.  He retired to Florida, I think.

The hollow dipper with solid top bearing greatly improves bearing life.  Wish I could get more!



« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 11:21:22 PM by BruceM »

Mr X

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2015, 01:32:41 PM »
1192 hr wow I was surprised I don't look at my hr meter that often but when I did I was impressed, still more impressing was when I took it apart. I wish I knew how to attach pics in here cause it tells the story and water injection is the way to go. Without injection and only after 100 hr or so the knock was so bad it would drive me out of the shop. The carbon would be bridging the gap between piston and head usually in a ring all around the the top of the piston. And concentrated strongly in the valve area. The carbon would be so hard and brittle it would almost need a hammer and chisel to remove it. But this time was different yes there was some hard carbon but the majority was the soft fluffy variety that comes off with a 2 in stiff putty knife. So clean up time was less and for sur easier. Maybe the worst part was my gaskets to go gasket was bonded to the head, it delaminates and needed to be scraped and wire wheeled of. The last time I was in to the motor I went the extra and changed the con rod Bering all I had at the time was a used ungrooved top bearing. After close to 1500 hr I expected it to be toast, don't forget I had water in my oil 2 x. The bearing was fine so I used it again. Not much more to say but I will use injection every day it dose work, and if u do it rite you won't have water in the oil.

X
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Tom

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2015, 05:36:56 PM »
I don't understand what the deal is on the rod bearings. My 'roid was put into service back when a through inspection was thought to be good enough to determine if there was a sand problem. Well my inspection missed some sand in part because it was not documented where it was typically found.

There's now around 1900 hrs on my engine. The rod bearing was inspected and plastigauged at around 1600 hours. The OEM bearing looked great and showed almost no wear. Did I get an especially good OEM bearing? Are the rod journals in need of a good polish on the engines going through the OEM bearings? I don't know all I really have is just my success despite my inexperience.

Mr X, to post pictures you will need to find a place to host them online somewhere. You can the post a link to the file to display it here. Glad to here water injection is working for you. How hard has all that carbon been on the rings and cylinder walls? I kind of got tired of messing with alternative fuels because the time and repairs just didn't pencil out for me.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

32 coupe

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2015, 11:01:06 PM »
Tom,
I think the biggest thing about the bearings is the fact that they block off the oil
holes in the top of the rod. This eliminates the possibility of debris getting to the
top shell.

I don't have any of them and my engines have run fine so far.

Gary
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 11:06:21 PM by 32 coupe »
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BruceM

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2015, 12:13:35 AM »
Debris is one issue, but spalling of the surface of the upper bearing was another that I had, and others had noted.  It was right at the center top of the bearing and was thought to be due to insufficient oil film thickness despite the hollow dipper.  I suppose it also could have been a bunch of bad bearings as well.


mike90045

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Re: Water in jection decarboning
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2015, 04:30:20 AM »
I've put quite a few hours on my Metro since the "Clank Clank" had started, and after about a total of a quart of water sprayed through shortly before each shutdown, I've not had the noise return.  I'm guessing it was detonation or carbon chunks blowing around, because the flywheels are still intact, and I was/am getting fluffy carbon blowing out the exhaust. I guess I will separate the pipe at the flange to the rest of my exhaust system, and make sure that's not getting plugged up. I've got about 10' of 2.5" pipe, and truck muffler that is hooked up.