Water in jection decarboning

[Mr X]

I was having trouble with bad!! Carbon build up. Or I'm getting less tolerant to the knocking coming from my Roid. I couldn't make it 250 hr oil change to oil change and it would involve 3/4 day tear down and decarbon. I burn WVO with just 10% jet or diesel. Yes I heat my filter and yes I heat my injection line, but it still knocked. I started snooping around for any info about it and seems some are having success with water injection. I just didn't know how totally successfully it is. After an afternoons tinkering I came up with something that works. I took a 3 inch piece of thermocouple off a gas hotwater tank and took the wire out of it. I cut it with tin snips and liteley squeezed the end open just a bit. Then I drilled a small hole in the intake manifold just below the clamp of the stock air cleaner. I then shoved my small copper pipe in till I found the sweet spot when it sprays a lite mist. The other end I attached to a windshield squirter hose put a small piece of copper pipe on it to act as a weight. I found a water jug, not a bottel, you need something with a large surface area at the correct height. It seems to be dependant on syphon so the correct height is important. I fill with about a liter of clean water every few days, and it last maybe 2-3 hr I never timed it but it sure works. I'll take some pics later today

X

[Mr X]

How do u up load pics I'll have to do photo bucket. Any way my seveice records say
4015 decarboned
4355 decarbon over due 340 hr.
4470 hammered her through till now decarbon. This was not good I didn't like letting it hammer so long but I did 455 hr.
4545 decarbon this is getting ridiculous ha ha 75 hr
4656 decarbon 111 hr not much better. Water injection installed
5223 running good no knock water inject every 2-4 days, 567 hr since decarbon. The best yet.
  So if any of you guys run WVO and are tired of pulling your motor apart give this a try.

X

[dieselgman]

Thanks for that detail! We have long used a manual water mist to clean out problem build-ups in combustion chambers without tearing down an engine. There is a caution to heed however... to avoid risk of oil contamination from water getting past rings, you should be sure the engine is fully loaded and as hot as you can get it. This is so that as close to 100% as is possible, your injected water flashes to steam. Always keep a watch on your lube oil condition when doing this - just in case. Bearings do not lubricate well with water in the mix.

dieselgman

[mike90045]

I was actually doing this today with a spray bottle, into the intake with the air cleaner off.  It was well warmed up, and I'd spray and wait a few sec, and then spray again.  I was wary of getting a slug of water in and hydro-locking the engine, which at speed and flywheels, would likely break something.  Got about a cup through it.

  So the thought is to run about a liter into there ?  

 Will several short runs with water be as effective as 1 long run ?

Tomorrow, I reset the valves since I had it warmed up good today.
I've got 2 sets of number for the valve spec, which one is "better" ?
 Tappet Clearances COLD Inlet 0.017"
 Exhaust 0.032" for 3/1, 5/1, 6/1, 10/2, 12/2.
 and
Tappet clearances for the 8/1 and 16/2 are 0.008" both valves COLD

Edit - I see that the clearances are for 2 diff engines, mine would be the
 Tappet Clearances COLD Inlet 0.017"
 Exhaust 0.032" for 3/1, 5/1, 6/1, 10/2, 12/2.

PS 
 And my IR thermometer says my exhaust port is about 320F when under steady load (2500w)

[BruceM]

Thanks for the IR temp on the exhaust, Mike.  I wonder if anyone has ever taken an actual EGT measurement?

[Mr X]

Mike I messed around with a spray bottel at first too, it didn't seem to do much I think the secret is a small mist sustained over several hr and  repeated every few days. At first I used an un crushed large hypodermic needel and you could see it pissing in, no mist what so ever. Now with the semi crushed tube u can see it dribble and mist down in the throat. I'm sure you don't have the patients to stand ther and squirt your bottel for 3 hr like this simple rig. You can see an increase in steam coming from the exaust when using this. And I see a lot of black specs in the snow just east of the exaust pipe. It works try it. One thing I forgot the hole in the intake should be close to the same height as the water tank water level empty.

X

[mike90045]

The thought of dribbling a tank of water into the upturned intake, scares me.  I'll likely flip the intake over, and let it suck the water mist up into it. Maybe try an ultrasonic fogger module, or 3 of them directed to the intake.  in my car, with the steady suction of a V8, a drizzle of water is turned into fog, but in the 6/1 with the air surge, a lot of water may not get atomized.

[BruceM]

The beauty of Mr 's water injection method is that it is operated by the very slight intake manifold vacuum. so there's no risk of "drowning" the engine.  Since diesel intake vacuum is nearly non-existent, he's accomplished this with a very narrow range of water level (shallow source) at just below gravity flow.  By using the squashed tiny copper tube as a nozzel he's getting a thin film of water that atomizes.  Simple, safe, proven effective at carbon removal by his data.

Bravo, Mr X!

[Mr X]

I don't know what to say I had the same hard headed ness when I came up with the balancing thing. There was all these fellows that thought u have to disasemble and dynamic balance all I can say is suit your self. Same again suit your self if you like to disasemble every 100 hr when burning veg oil do so. I won't and now don't have to. As far as dribbling it isn't my intake hole is drilled at about 39 in above floor, my empty tank height is about 39 in I have about 3/4 inch water in tank when it stops sucking. The tube is hanging in the tank over the lip and held in with a small copper tube weight. In order to get it to syphon sometimes need to remove air filter and place hand over intake quickly. The nozzle is what controls the flow. Small slit as a posed to example of hypodermics needel which pissed in good luck I hope you try it it takes about 2-3 hr to set this rig up the best time you will waste.

X

[Mr X]

lets see if this works. There I took the lock off now every one can see more then 1 pic. Not the most revealing pics but gives u idea.

http://s106.photobucket.com/user/MRx_04/media/imagejpg3.jpg.html?o=0

[dieselgman]

When learning how to work this cleaning process in small Lister diesels I experienced water past rings on more than one occasion... the lube oil will go milky in very short order (and lose its lubricating properties). Be very observant and careful!

My mistakes were: 1.) Sending through too much water at one time... as soon as the combustion chamber temps dropped enough to lose the steam flash, then apparently enough liquid water was left there to work past the rings. This probably coincided with the power drop that happened once I had sufficient water in the mixture to kill the power and slow down the engine. 2.) Not providing enough load and not keeping the engine at or near maximum temperatures... net result again was water past the rings.

With the air-cooled Lister diesels, malfunctioning fuel injection (a poorly working injector or pump), or running cold without sufficient load can, and often does, cause combustion chambers and ports to foul with carbon. I have often seen one cylinder of a multi-cylinder engine completely blocked with carbon when they have been neglected. The water injection obviously does not cure a fuel injection problem but can clear the resulting mess easily that would normally require an engine tear-down. Of course, if your engine is worn excessively or your fuel system not functioning to spec, then you have few choices other than curing those mechanical problems first... a water/steam cleanout is not going to be of much help.

dieselgman

[Mr X]

yesterday iI herd the knock starting so I put 2 liter in my tank and ran it with almost instant success. I thought since the knock quit I'd pull the hose on the water injector. But there was no more water to worry about. Wow such a small slit and it sucked it dry in about 1/2 hr. I shut it down a few hr later. After a liesurly lunch and snooze I went to fire it up. To my surprise it was a oily mess, my drip pan was full and my toilet paper filter ther was a hernia of mushed TP sticking out from spots around the gasket. Enough I took the TP filter and plumbing off and re hooked the stock oil line configuration. This is the forth time I've had the oil empty into my drip pan and that's it.
     So what's happing is I think I'm injecting too fast. When you look down the intake at the water injector you don't see much of a flow but if you put a finger across the intake the flow increases. Well a finger is about the same restriction a air cleaner causes thus increasing the sucking effect on the water injector. So my advice is make sure your slit in the injector is very small, watch your TP filters they turn to mush with water then preasure up and blow out. I'm still going to try water injection but with more caution I hate to loose such a valuable way to clean the insides out.

X

[mike90045]

........ watch your TP filters they turn to mush with water then preasure up and blow out. I'm still going to try water injection but with more caution I hate to loose such a valuable way to clean the insides out.

Whats the theory of what happened ?  Did water get into the oil and blow out the filter, or did the filter just happen to blow out the same day you injected ?

[Mr X]

I'd say the water passed the rings and made it to the oil the oil went throught the tp filter and turned it to mush which caused preasure in tp filter to rise blowing out the filter ?
    I'm at 5356 hr installed injection at 4656 so 700 hr since installing if you remember I said I could nearly make it 100 hr before carbon ing up. I'm still going to try this but with more caution.

X

[ronmar]

TP filters are cellulose(wood) based and they will naturally absorb water. What happened with water in the oil is to be expected with a TP filter.

I think the issue with WI in a listeroid or other slowspeed is the thermal rate of the engine.  A 4 cylinder turbocharged engine running down the highway under boost is generating a great deal of heat at a fast rate, and therfore can deal with a significant ammount of water and flash it to steam and pass it thru the exhaust without any ever condensing and getting past the rings to contaminate the lube oil.  People who try and make steam engines out of old lawnmowers have this same issue untill they realize that they must insulate the cylinder and keep the cylinder and piston temp at all locations above 212F.

In the case of the listeroid, too much water will cause parts of the engine to cool too much(flashing to steam absorbs a tremendous ammount of thermal energy). and at the long interval between power strokes,  could allow droplets to remain in liquid form and migrate past the rings.  Because the lower block on a listeroid never gets really warm, this moisture won't easilly be driven off like it would in a vehicle that reaches higher operational and oil temps. That is also why you need to make sure the engine is at full load so you have the maximum ammount of heat available to react with the water.   

I have for a long time thought it would be a good idea to circulate LO up past the exhaust to the head to get it's temperature higher to help it drive off moisture.

For water injection on a listeroid it might be beneficial to circulate the injected water thru a coil around the exhaust to pre-heat the water close to 200F. This would allow it to more easilly flash in the cylinder without robbing the internals of as much heat...