balance and stover 20" on a 6/1, left and right?

[tyssniffen]

man, I've been reading through balancing threads and I'm starting to freak out.  I have a real hopper and have basically been working (for years) on getting better bolting down... but today, just glancing at the wheels, I noticed one looked a little wider than the other... just did a quick check and without getting out calipers, it looks like one is a 1/16th of an inch thicker. 

these things have been on the shaft for years, and I don't own a gib puller, so I'm on here trying to figure out how to tell if maybe I put them on the wrong sides!?!?! all this time... or how else I might figure out how to balance these things without pulling them off.

is there a difference between stover lefts and rights?  I can imagine that difference in thickness (width, I guess) doesn't matter as long as the weight is the same and distributed. am I wrong?

[dieselgman]

First off, is your machine a British original? An Indian clone?

Left and right flywheels were clearly identified on the British originals... however, swapping them should not preclude getting your balance correct. The 6/1 is not internally balanced... the compensation is in the flywheel mass and the way the cut-outs in the Stover wheels were offset. The 6/1 with spoked flywheels had an extra cast-in weight approximately opposite the piston/conrod throw.

Balancing can be a challenge... especially if you are starting with a very unbalanced setup - or have the wrong flywheels installed.

Further investigation is in order here.

dieselgman

[BruceM]

+1 for Gary's comment on more information needed about exactly what your engine is.     

Regarding balancing:  Do a search on "Mr X" , balancing and you should find some good tips on his practical, effective method.  With some modeling clay and stick on lead weights it's a DIY job. 

[xyzer]

What Bruce said................and you don't need to remove the flywheels!

STILL looking for a set of these wheels...  can't stand that my machine keeps trying to hop away.  Anyone?  email me at  tys  at   ideamountain  dot  com

I noticed on your other post looking for different flywheels you needed to increase the rpm of your 6/1 to compensate for the smaller diameter wheels.  A 6/1 is balanced for 650 rpm. They seem to be rpm specific. It may be easier to find a smaller pulley for your generator that would allow you to reduce the rpm. How does it behave at 650 rpm?How fast are you running it?

[tyssniffen]

sorry -  posting in the 'oid section, I figured it was assumed. I have a 2006 made 6/1 oid from Power Solutions.

and yes, the stovers are 20", and thus going faster than 650 to get the typical alt pulley up to speed is crazy.  I have purchased a 7.25" pulley (did the math on the 20" etc) so that it should run at 650rpm.

I've run it at all different speeds, at times, have had it producing power, though usually not perfect 120vac, but more like 105-110v.   I had it bolted to 2 3"x5# posts which were in turn bolted to 3 railroad ties buried in the ground... and over time it broke the bolts and was shaking the whole thing. 

I have seen the Mr X stuff, but also saw some stuff about pulling the wheels and checking for the weighted bit by hanging horizontally.

will get some pictures up.

Tys

[Quinnf]

PMed you.

Quinn

[xyzer]

Your math looks right. At 1800 rpm or 60 hz it should be at 650. Soooooooooo you have a shaker!

[38ac]

You are right in that the thickness or width of the rim has almost nothing g to do with your balance problem. I had an RA Lister 6/1 in the shop last year that had a spoke flywheel on the pump side and a 8/1 disk type flywheel on the other side and it would sit still un bolted on a concrete floor at 650 RPM.
 I find it easier to remove the flywheels and at least get the offset weighs the same and directly opposite the crankthrows prior to doing a "Mr X" type job. I fi d that not only quicker, bit nice results are quickly obtained. Others do well enough without removing them, I think part of it is in what one deems good enough.
Don't get discouraged by all the type.  Balancing is much easier to do than to write about. When done properly these engines are well behaved.

[tyssniffen]

ok, I'll get serious about reading through that Mr. X stuff.  and I think I'm going to buy some standard wheels too.  I might be an expert despite myself.

here's a glimpse at my non-crank-side stover wheel. anybody see anything obvious about left/right, weight off center or anything?



don't hate me for the rust.  I just tried a different sort of bolt-down, by bolting the frames to J-bolts sunk into 5 gallon buckets of concrete.  that definitely didn't work.

[tyssniffen]

ok, read and re-read on Mr X method, but couldn't find original post, so my only questions are,

the pen makes marks on the wheel as it lunges toward it, so the weight goes OPPOSITE the mark (plus lead space?)

then, when both are done some, the marks should get longer - that is, the pen should need to move closer and stay on the wheel longer, yes?

and, the first amount of weight to start with is 4 oz ?

[dieselgman]

Does your crankshaft have counterweights inside the block? Those flywheels appear to have no counterweighting. At any rate, if these were original to the engine, you should be able to proceed with balancing as normally expected.

dieselgman

[38ac]

First thing you need to do is as Gary said and remove your crankcase door to see what type of crankshaft you have, counter weighted or not?  Those flywheels are for a counterweighted crank not normally seen on engines sold as 6/1 or 8/1.

[xyzer]

I have seen a 8/1 internally balanced with the stover wheels. If the wheels are for an internally balanced engine they should have no counterbalance designed into them which I agree with the others they appear not to. I agree with 38ac. If there are no internal weights on the crankshaft that would explain the imbalance or at least most of it. If there no weights on the crank Quinn knows how much and where the weight needs to go to get it in the ballpark. Try that carefully controlling the speed. If that helps then resort to the mr x method. If there are counterbalance weights on the crank the mr x method will also help get you going in the right direction. Good luck!

[BruceM]

Your interpretation of the Mr X method is correct, and yes 4 oz is a good increment.
If you don't have an internal counterweight you'll be adding a lot of lead to the rim!

[Quinnf]

I think the manufacturer put the wrong flywheels on that engine.  Those are for an internally balanced 10/1.  The internally balanced Indian engines had/(have?) four circular cutouts and require counterweights on the big end to balance the reciprocating forces. 

A while back I determined that the counterweight cast into the 22" 6-spoke flywheels weigh about 48 ozs, each.  It wouldn't be hard to calculate the necessary weight to bolt onto the 10/1 flywheel web to provide the same balancing force at 650 rpm.  But given the smaller radius of the stover flywheels, the counterweight would have to be quite a bit heavier than that.  A machine shop could cut a couple of pieces of steel that could be bolted through one of the cutouts in the web.  But I have another solution which involves a pair of new old-stock 6-spoke 6/1 flywheels that I got from Joel when he was selling off his remaining spare parts.  I wanted to help Joel out, so paid him for them and hauled them home.  Subsequent to that, I pulled my biceps tendon off my radius bone lifting a flywheel in a way I shouldn't have, and had to have surgery to repair it.  So my RN-wife informed me that I'm not allowed to lift flywheels any more.   

Tyssniffen and I have discussed the matter offline. 

Quinn