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Author Topic: Lo no oil  (Read 7819 times)

Mr X

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Lo no oil
« on: December 21, 2014, 02:57:59 PM »
The other day I wandered out to shut the mighty Roid and as I passed by I peeked in and saw my under motor oil pan full of black oil, shit. Not again. I am running a toilet paper filter and it is plumed in with 3/8 rubber fuel line. I guess the constant pressure surges of that little pump was enough to over 500 hrs burst my fuel line. I have no idea how long it ran like that but I think the splash system saved it from destruction. There was still a little pool of oil in the curved well under the crank just enough to splash a bit around and keep things working. Yes I have now plumbed it with 3/8 copper, hopefully it won't happen again.
      Would anyone have ideas of a low oil warning or even shutdown, this is the second time this happened and I don't wish to repeat it. I'm thinking maybe of a small air ram T ed into my oil line and if there is oil being pumped it would extend the ram thus keeping it running. If there was a oil leak the pressure would hopefully drop ( if not replaced with air pressure) and with the help of a return spring pull in the air ram plunger thus hooked to decompression lever shutting Down the Roid. I have already proved that she'll run with out oil so this system wouldn't be instant it would work over a while hopefully saving my big green girl. Any one built such a creature any ideas? 

Mr X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

BruceM

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2014, 05:18:19 PM »
I would like your very original oil pressure activated shut down approach more if you could raise the oil pump inlet so that pressure was lost when the oil level dropped below the safe operating level.  The problem may be that the oil level may be too agitated by the splash system for this to work well, you may have to create a special chamber for the oil intake so that it is fed from a hole on the bottom and vented through a hole at the top, and isn't affected by the splash.  I like the direct simplicity of this method, with zero electronics.

I use a much more complex electronically controlled system that supports multiple auto shut down signals; oil level high or low, excessive vibration, high head temperature (coolant loss),  and rpm out of range. For oil level I use a magnet in a float, inside a vinyl oil sight tube to trigger a reed relay.  The sight tube connects to the former oil drain and goes up to a 90 degree hose barb connected to a threaded hole in the crankcase. This is cheap and effective as an oil level sensor, and I get an oil level sight tube.  (I actually have two sensors zip tied to the tube- one high and one low.) The magnetic float in sight tube method has no problems with splash, it is slow and shows the average oil level.

 The reed relay signal is used to drive a rack closer, in my case a pneumatic cylinder controlled by a 12v solenoid valve.  I use the same control as part of remote/auto starting and stopping as well.  Since your shut down is for low oil emergencies only, you might consider another method I experimented with- a brass wire "fuse" held by two terminal strip screws which holds the governor spring.  When 12v is applied to the brass wire it breaks and the governor then closes the rack.  I did test this repeatedly and it works very reliably.

Auto shut down for low oil, etc. are not really optional for me, I'm just too forgetful to not have them.  I've twice had low oil shutdowns that saved my engine from my memory problems.



« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 05:25:12 PM by BruceM »

Tom

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2014, 11:03:17 PM »
I'm kind of a KISS guy, so my thoughts and system reflect that. The problem with external lines is that they can and will leak. My setup just uses the original Indian splash system and will never have a catastrophic leak unless there is a crack in the crank case.

If you're using bio-diesel, that can quickly eat most rubber hoses, even the small amount that get's past the rings. Copper will work harden and crack from vibration fairly quickly, unless you have one of those rare Listeroids that doesn't vibrate ;D. The best choice for external lines would be steel with double flair fittings and if any hose is needed, I'd try the viton lined fuel injection hose.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Hugh Conway

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2014, 11:27:29 PM »
I'm not going to be much help here. Looks like low oil in a stocker would have to be caused by failure of external lines  (to/from oil pump), or a really bad leak somewhere.
Lucky for me, have not had any oil line breakage, oil just oozes enough to keep things from rusting here on the coast. Have not had to add oil between seasonal changes.  will be installing an external filter at next oil change time, so maybe this is something to be on the lookout for!
My run time averages 2 hrs per day, I have to be standing there to start and shut down, so a cursory inspection and a squirt or two with the oil can sees it right.

Mr X, I see you are up in the Peace, off-grid, and raise boar. We are off-grid as well. No boar though. How about sticking one in the mail for me.......getting tired of salmon!
Cheers,
Hugh
JKSON6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1963 BMW R-27 project

Tom

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2014, 01:18:55 AM »
What a coincidence, I'm off-grid, raise boar and don't need to add any oil between changes too.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Hugh Conway

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2014, 04:17:21 AM »
Tom, can we all join Jefferson? I am ready.
Cheers,
Hugh
JKSON6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1963 BMW R-27 project

Mr X

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2014, 04:19:40 PM »
Bruce I like the simple idea of the brass wire fuse . I'm imagining a t off the oil drain plug the t would be pointing up and u could attach a stout plastic tube say 6-8 in long. This would report your oil level, in the tube u could place a float with a magnet. I have about 100 of those magnetic reed switches. I m not sure the currant rating I think 1/2 amp what gauge brass wire would u use how many amps to make it pop. I suppose I could run it through a headlight relay to controle rather your brass wire fuse or I could run it to a solenoid valve hum mm.

I sold my heard of wild boar about 6-7 years ago I'm very happy with my freedom. But as a retirement buissnes I built a boarding kennel, so now I'm a dog farmer. I haven't been posted on here for quite some time, though I do read it from time to time. Oh in passing I have to rant about something I m doing, water injection. I burn 75% wvo 25% diesel or jet fuel I was carbon ing up real bad so I experimented with water injection. I took my decarboning from less then 200 hr to now close to 400 hr with no knock and bang like before.

X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

Tom

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2014, 05:38:21 PM »
Tom, can we all join Jefferson? I am ready.
Cheers,
Hugh

As of last Sept. Mendocino County was not included as part of the new state. I went to a meeting and decided it should be. So a committee was formed and now we're on our way. If you to to Jefferson Mendocino County on facebook you can see some info and links. Where are you?
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Hugh Conway

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2014, 11:32:08 PM »
Tom: Re: State of Jefferson........
I am north, across the border  about 50*N 125*W.........Unless things change greatly (possible) Jefferson remains a state of mind for me. Best of luck with it down there! I wish you well.
Cheers,
Hugh
JKSON6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1963 BMW R-27 project

cujet

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2014, 02:39:19 AM »
I use a motorguard filter, but I plumbed it with Aeroquip stainless braided hose. If it's good enough for aircraft, it's good enough for my listeroid. Been working well for the last 8 or 9 years.
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dieselgman

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2014, 02:45:32 PM »
Good strategy that! We use the same approach with our standby power systems... not quite to the standard of aircraft maintenance, but similar in approach. We watch the service hours and elapsed time for all systems and components and replace parts well before their life expectancy or failure points in most cases. Good Predictive and Preventative Maintenance, can save a lot of emergency call-outs.

dieselgman
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BruceM

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2014, 03:34:24 PM »
Mr X, I forgot to respond to you amps question.  The 28G brass wire I used would certainly draw a peak current near or over 10 amps, but only for a few milliseconds as the wire heats.  A solid state switch is ideal for this sort of thing, or a semiconductor device known as an SCR.  An SCR or silicon controlled rectifier is ideal for this as even the smallest device could do the job, they are cheap. The SCR is a diode with a gate- when the gate gets a positive voltage the diode is turned on. Your reed relay would then only hand a miniscule amount of current, to switch the gate of the SCR (uA) (or solid state switch- a few milli-amps)  Coil relays will also do OK for this application, as the relay will never have to break the current flow.  The down side might be the coil current of the relay, if the generator is running unattended.



ronmar

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2014, 11:38:52 PM »
Be carefull with the copper, if you have any movement, it will eventually work harden and crack.  I use steel brake lines for these type things.  They are a little tougher to bend, but they are pretty bullet resistant. The flare fittings also seal well and th assembly once bent and fitted disassembles easilly.  That is the beauty of the CS design, the oil slung by the dipper mostly runs back into the upper sump so the engine isn't going to self destruct immediately if the pump quits..
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

Mr X

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2015, 03:20:50 PM »
Bruce After thinking about what u say about continuous amp draw it occurred to me that I can get my 12 volt power from a batery charger so when the safety device shuts off the Roid the power shuts off and the 12 volt also shuts off. I'm also thinking of getting door lock selonoid and using the decompression for shut down. I accidentally ran across your thread about oil level shut down nice to have a pic to see what you have done. Your motor must be new it doesn't have the greasy patina mine do. Eat her that your not afraid to scrub and shine.
     As to work hardening copper it my be true but it won't happen over nite. I had my wvo heater system tied into the coolent and had copper tubes running hither and yawn for bout 5 years never had a leak. I'm sur it will last till spring when I'm the need will arise to fix other thins and then maybe I'll adress the copper tube issue.
   
X
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

BruceM

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Re: Lo no oil
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2015, 03:50:22 PM »
Mr X-
I like your idea of simply powering the circuit via AC.  The brass wire fuse link wouldn't mind AC either;  you could either use a 12 or 24V transformer or a current limiting power resistor with 120VAC.  A 12 ohm power resistor would limit current to 10 amps at 120VAC, a rating of at least 2 watts would be sufficient since the current will be very brief.  A current inrush limiter would also work.  Switch the hot leg of the 120VAC via relay so that the brass wire is not normally energized. If going 24VAC, you'd want a transformer with a secondary rated at least 5 amps, and you could switch the primary (120VAC) side of the transformer. That would allow you to use a small relay, since the current on the 120VAC side would be 1/5 the 24V side. 

If your AC output is 240V, then a 240/24v transformer might be ideal, and you could probably handle the transformer current with your reed relays.