Gib key protruding

[38ac]

The Purple stuff is just a rust preventative coating. They are also placing it on the deck surfaces of the engine kit components.  Jack's Giibb key fitting instructions are good but just a smidgen overboard for some who don't like instruction manuals, meaning fitting one isnt have as entailed as it would appear. Remember these points and youll be good
Put the sand paper in the wood finishing room where iit belongs,  this is FILE territory and you need also a good vise, if not leave the keys alone alone, you will be doing more damage than good.
A- Clean the shaft, flywheel bore and both keyways
B- File any burrs you find on the shaft and break the corners of the key and keyway.
C- Using a black magic marker or paint marker ( instead of a messy soot fire) blacken the key on all four sides.
D lightly-Knock it in until it stops , pull it out and FIRST look at the bottom to be sure its NOT stopping on the corners of the key, if so file them first.
C- Once the entire key iis resting on the bottom of the keyway you then use the spotting technique on the top to remove the high areas and thus deepen the penetration of the Gibb key
D- you DO NOT want the key hitting hardest at either end on the flywheel bore, this is what cracks flywheel hibs. You want it bearing hard in the middle of the bore.
E- When right the key will go in 90% of the way by hand or light tapping and when it gets tight it will stop abruptly.

[BruceM]

Excellent directions, 38ac.  Clear and concise. You and Ronmar are some of our best tech writers!

[Gippslander]

My first job after removing the flywheels will be 38ac's  balancing trick with the bucket of weights and the string .

I think I understand the method  but I may need some advice along the way  

I do have a machinist precision level which is a good start , I can level the balancing frame to a high accuracy

[ronmar]

The machinists precision level makes the engine checkout a piece of cake. I found it particularly usefull in confirming crankshaft alignment with the deck/top of engine block.  If you find half gaskets under your cylinder, you will probably find a crank to block mis-alignment.

[Gippslander]

The machinists precision level makes the engine checkout a piece of cake. I found it particularly usefull in confirming crankshaft alignment with the deck/top of engine block.  If you find half gaskets under your cylinder, you will probably find a crank to block mis-alignment.

I am a bit worried about the deck being out of alignment .  If it is out of alignment , I may have to have  the deck surface ground .

Apparently the Jkson 6/1,  which I have, is one of the better brands of Listeroid out there  , but Im not taking any chances

Oh well,   life would be boring without these challenges 
Mike

[38ac]

We are set up to both measure and deal with the Indian machine work errors but that doesn't do anyone out in the field much good and frankly most aren't willing to pay to have things corrected that way.  Out in the field you can use the level to check some things but other errors wont show up. Basically you can have a parallelogram when you need a rectangle or square for lack of a better way to put it.  Without any fancy tools to work with the way to check your block and crankcase for acceptable machine work (after using a level or without using one)  is to install the crankshaft and main bearings. Then install the cylinder block without any gaskets or the head and snug it using some spacers under the nuts. I have some pipe cut just for this purpose. Then check the rod (or have it checked) to be sure it is straight, most are pretty good in this respect. Then make sure your rod will go through the bore, some won't. I rework the rod so they will slip through the bore to ease future maintenance, you don't have to if you dont want to. Anyway assuming it will fit assemble the piston to the rod without rings but with  bearing insert.The wrist pin should be a slip fit in the bush but there should be barely any perceptible "slop".  Slip the piston and rod in the bore and if things are right the big end should fit to the crank and the rod should be in the middle of the piston bosses. If not you have either a crooked deck or block, have seen both but the deck is most often the cause.  There are several stages of crooked.  The worst will not even allow the rod bearing to fit over the crankshaft, or the rod might be tight against one of the piston bosses which is not acceptable. (you check this with a mirror) The next check if the rod fits is to install the cap and using the mirror look at the small end of the rod at both TDC and BDC. If it is moving back and forth on the wrist pin you have  alignment problems.  You can re machine or use half gaskets to correct this. You can also just run it but the engine will suffer for it eventually.

I rambled on about this once before but DO NOT!! Use half gaskets in an attempt to correct uneven squish. Uneven squish hurts nothing and you will  be placing your rod and piston in a bind which hurts lots.  Average your squish measurements when they are not the same side to side.

[38ac]

Excellent directions, 38ac.  Clear and concise. You and Ronmar are some of our best tech writers!

  Thank you but I am really just kinda redneck like.  Tech Writer sounds pretty fancy

[dieselgman]

That is why we value your input so much Butch! Mostly just common-sense practical and no bs.

dieselgman

[listard-jp2]

D- you DO NOT want the key hitting hardest at either end on the flywheel bore, this is what cracks flywheel hibs. You want it bearing hard in the middle of the bore.

That been the case, why is it that genuine Lister CS flywheels are relieved in the centre of the bore for a good 1"

[38ac]

I am not sure why Lister did that but I do have an opinion that I am not sure is correct. Lister keys are not bearing hard at the edges of the flywheels either  which is as I was taught to fit them. 

[ronmar]

If the piston top is parallel to the crank(along the same axis as the wrist pin and crankshaft) a mis-alignment of the cylinder bore for which a half gasket would compensate will show itself as differential squish.  The holes in the side of my block where the crankshaft roller bearing carriers set, were not bored parallel to the deck.  But my piston top was parallel to the crankshaft(machinists level can help you check this also).  So when I installed the cylinder without a half gasket, this angular difference showed up in the differential squish.  The difference in squish across the 4" piston equaled the angular offset between my crank and deck. That told me the cylinder top and bottom were at least parallel, but not if the installed cylinder formed a parallellogram or a rectangle.   It also created a wicked offset of the piston on the wrist pin from crank up to crank down:  As 38ac mentioned, that is the important part to align the cylinder to, either by using a half gasket to align the cylinder bore or by relocating the crank bearings to align the piston axis to the deck and cylinder.  The point I am getting at is that if the piston to rod offset is small from full up to full down, you are probably going to have a pretty small differential squish across he piston top over the wristpin ends.

The cylinder/liner true can be checked fairly easilly on a large drill press.  I put two bolts into the drill press table slots that would fit inside the cylinder when it is placed onto the table over the bolts.  I would have them touch the inside of the cylinder around the 3 and 6 Oclock positions.  I clamp a rod with a dial indicator into the chuck and position it down inside the top of the cylinder with it's measurement rod touching the cylinder top between but directly above the two bolts.  You rotate the cylinder slowly keeping the bottom inside edge of the cylinder against the two bolts.  As you rotate the cylinder watch the dial indicator.  If the cylinder bore is perpendicular with the lower surface, the dial indicator measurement should stay constant thru 360 degrees of rotation.  If it varies thru 360 degrees, something is out of true.  I have a pic somewhere of this setup, I will see if I can locate it and post it...     

[38ac]

I agree with what Ronmar is saying here but all who are reading realize that he did some measuring beforehand  so he knew where his problem was and it was forcing the piston sideways in the bore. His half gasket relived that.   This is a different situation than simply stacking the engine together, measuring squish and then using half gaskets in a effort to equalize squish as I have seen suggested on this forum. You have to be careful about applying half of what one guy says and half of what another says and here is why. Lister's original specs for the cast iron piston is .0055 to ,0065 clearance at the skirt for cast iron pistons and .0075 to .0085 for the 8/1 aluminum pistons. The running clearances when warm are much closer, .003-.004 range. My experience with Indian engines and parts is they get this pretty close.  How do you affect the top with out affecting the skirt of the piston, the answer is of course that you cannot. The piston should be running up and down in the bore being centered by the ring tension and the film of oil on the skirt and not be forced out of center by other forces. This is the situation you should be after when shimming your blocks around. And once you are there what ever squish differences you have just don't tell anyone, the engine doesn't know, nor care. Head gaskets, head deck surfaces, and piston machining also affect squish from side to side, a person should not be trying to cock the piston in the bore to correct these other known problems.

[Gippslander]

We are set up to both measure and deal with the Indian machine work errors but that doesn't do anyone out in the field much good and frankly most aren't willing to pay to have things corrected that way.  Out in the field you can use the level to check some things but other errors wont show up. Basically you can have a parallelogram when you need a rectangle or square for lack of a better way to put it.  Without any fancy tools to work with the way to check your block and crankcase for acceptable machine work (after using a level or without using one)  is to install the crankshaft and main bearings. Then install the cylinder block without any gaskets or the head and snug it using some spacers under the nuts. I have some pipe cut just for this purpose. Then check the rod (or have it checked) to be sure it is straight, most are pretty good in this respect. Then make sure your rod will go through the bore, some won't. I rework the rod so they will slip through the bore to ease future maintenance, you don't have to if you dont want to. Anyway assuming it will fit assemble the piston to the rod without rings but with  bearing insert.The wrist pin should be a slip fit in the bush but there should be barely any perceptible "slop".  Slip the piston and rod in the bore and if things are right the big end should fit to the crank and the rod should be in the middle of the piston bosses. If not you have either a crooked deck or block, have seen both but the deck is most often the cause.  There are several stages of crooked.  The worst will not even allow the rod bearing to fit over the crankshaft, or the rod might be tight against one of the piston bosses which is not acceptable. (you check this with a mirror) The next check if the rod fits is to install the cap and using the mirror look at the small end of the rod at both TDC and BDC. If it is moving back and forth on the wrist pin you have  alignment problems.  You can re machine or use half gaskets to correct this. You can also just run it but the engine will suffer for it eventually.

I rambled on about this once before but DO NOT!! Use half gaskets in an attempt to correct uneven squish. Uneven squish hurts nothing and you will  be placing your rod and piston in a bind which hurts lots.  Average your squish measurements when they are not the same side to side.

That is very good lesson  Thank you 

[Gippslander]

My 1940 Hendey lathe  Metric . It was ordered by a Paris business . As France was overrun the lathe was diverted to Australia and used by GMH  here  .  I had a lot of trouble removing the threaded chuck, it was jammed solid . I had to cut the backing plate off .  Mike


 
 

[xyzer]

Nice looking old iron. It looks a lot like a Monarch lathe that was built in the US. They don't make them like that anymore!