Gib key protruding

[Gippslander]

Hi

My gib keys protrude from the hub . Is this OK ? Seems to me that the keys are not all the way into the hub ?

I am planning on pulling down this listeroid , giving it the clean out and check for sand and the rest of the problems

This is a new Listeroid out of the crate .

Mike

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[dieselgman]

You are lucky the assembler/s did not seat those keys with a 20lb. sledge! Pulling the keys should be easy on that one. Most of the ones I have dealt with have been driven much further into the hubs... sometimes excessively so, and very difficult to pull.

I would take a very careful look at the keys and the keyways to be sure there are no problems with the tapers or other issues with proper fit before reassembly.

dieselgman

[Gippslander]

I would take a very careful look at the keys and the keyways to be sure there are no problems with the tapers or other issues with proper fit before reassembly.

dieselgman

Yes I will check the  crankshaft keyway , the hub tapered keyway  and the taper on the key for a good match . I think the old imperial standard taper was 1/4" to the foot . Not sure what standard the Indians have used , I doubt it would be metric but you never take anything for granted with these listeroids  

EDIT: I just measured a spare gib key and the taper over 3" , is from .348" down to .318" . That is .010" per inch

[Hugh Conway]

Gippslander
Here's a link to a page with excellent instructions on fitting gib keys by Jack Belk (hotater)
http://www.utterpower.com/fitting_gib_keys.htm
Hotater's method takes time and patience, but is well worth the effort.

I pulled the keys on my listeroid before it got its first run. They did not fit very well, with about as much protrusion as in your photo. I filed them to improve the fit. Made them fit much better, but even so, one of the keys worked loose while running. Fortunately the flywheel migrated towards the engine rather than off the end of the crank. I NEVER want to experience that situation again!!!! Back to filing..........in the end there was about 3/4 inch between the head of the key and flywheel face.
I have since acquired a Dursley 6/1 and was amazed at how differently the keys were fitted originally.  An easy job with a puller after all those years. Almost a light drive fit into the keyways on the crank and flywheel, very snug and can be driven in without too much force until they are completely seated with just enough distance between flywheel and key head for a gib key removal tool.
Do take some time here to achieve a good fit. Avoid a horror story of escaping flywheel.

Cheers,
Hugh

[Gippslander]

Gippslander
Here's a link to a page with excellent instructions on fitting gib keys by Jack Belk (hotater)
http://www.utterpower.com/fitting_gib_keys.htm
Hotater's method takes time and patience, but is well worth the effort.

I pulled the keys on my listeroid before it got its first run. They did not fit very well, with about as much protrusion as in your photo. I filed them to improve the fit. Made them fit much better, but even so, one of the keys worked loose while running. Fortunately the flywheel migrated towards the engine rather than off the end of the crank. I NEVER want to experience that situation again!!!! Back to filing..........in the end there was about 3/4 inch between the head of the key and flywheel face.
I have since acquired a Dursley 6/1 and was amazed at how differently the keys were fitted originally.  An easy job with a puller after all those years. Almost a light drive fit into the keyways on the crank and flywheel, very snug and can be driven in without too much force until they are completely seated with just enough distance between flywheel and key head for a gib key removal tool.
Do take some time here to achieve a good fit. Avoid a horror story of escaping flywheel.

Cheers,
Hugh

Thanks

That is a comprehensive article . Jack certainly knows his way around a file  

Edit :  Would valve grinding paste be a worthwhile thing to try . After the filing and marker pen job has been done, Lapping in the key the last few microns with valve paste might be wortwhile ?  Mike

[mike90045]

And a $5 shaft collar is a sound investment.  Get 2 of them, lock them on behind the key, and you have
a) much more resistance to a key falling out
b) a little bit of a shroud to keep something from snagging on the head of the key ( your pants cuff, sleeve, tie....)

[Gippslander]

And a $5 shaft collar is a sound investment.  Get 2 of them, lock them on behind the key, and you have
a) much more resistance to a key falling out
b) a little bit of a shroud to keep something from snagging on the head of the key ( your pants cuff, sleeve, tie....)

What do these collars look like

 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/30mm-Axle-Locking-Collar-FREE-POSTAGE-WIZZ-KARTS-/271402044655?pt=UK_Cars_Parts_Vehicles_Other_Vehicle_Parts_Accessories_ET&hash=item3f30d28cef?

Does The collar have a screw in socket head screw that locks into the keyway ?



Mike

[Hugh Conway]

Gippslander:

I used shaft collars something like this:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Qty-2-1-2-Axle-Shaft-Collar-Double-Split-Black-Oxide-/361080090760?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item54120cf088         Of course in 2" ID size.

Something like this would also do:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Qty-1-3-4-Shaft-Collar-Single-Split-Black-/361072424796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541197f75c

The halves clamp onto the shaft, not screwed into the keyway, don't want to bugger up the keyway. I placed them a bit outboard of the Gibb key head, so one can see any movement at a glance prior to start-up, maybe 0.1" or less, but a bit of clearance.

The collars can be considered an additional safety feature, but no substitute for a properly fitted Gibb.

BTW, Jack Belk is a gunsmith, among other things, so does know how to precision fit.

Cheers,
Hugh

[Gippslander]

Gippslander:

I used shaft collars something like this:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Qty-2-1-2-Axle-Shaft-Collar-Double-Split-Black-Oxide-/361080090760?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item54120cf088         Of course in 2" ID size.

Something like this would also do:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Qty-1-3-4-Shaft-Collar-Single-Split-Black-/361072424796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541197f75c

The halves clamp onto the shaft, not screwed into the keyway, don't want to bugger up the keyway. I placed them a bit outboard of the Gibb key head, so one can see any movement at a glance prior to start-up, maybe 0.1" or less, but a bit of clearance.

The collars can be considered an additional safety feature, but no substitute for a properly fitted Gibb.

BTW, Jack Belk is a gunsmith, among other things, so does know how to precision fit.

Cheers,
Hugh

Thanks Hugh

I will make the collars as I have a lathe .   Regards  Mike

[mike90045]

....
I will make the collars as I have a lathe .   Regards  Mike

You want a collar that clamps on the shaft, by reducing it's ID, not a washer with a setscrew.

[ronmar]

What Mike said.  Te split collar like he pictured is what you want.  I ordered mine thru fastenall.

That key pic initially posted almost looks like it would if the wheel was on the shaft backwards... 

The key holds the wheel on the shaft mainly thru friction between the inside of the hub and the shaft opposite the keyway.  Jacks article is great particularly in the area of metal prep to help reduce corrosion once the assembly is put together. 

One hint I will add is that it is way easier to seat the key initially if you rotate the shaft so the keyway is on the bottom.  That way the contact area in the hub is already fully in contact with the shaft and you are not having to lift it with the key taper like you would be if the keyway is pointing up.

Indian machine work being what it is. I would definitely check that the key taper matches the flywheel taper.  Keyway down helps with the test fitting process as well.  I used candle soot on the key and looked for witness marks on the key after lightly tapping the key into the keyway and filing where the contact marks are untill the contact area covers as much of the key surface as possible.  The keys that came with mine were off by a considerable ammount... The flywheel keyway taper was also not constant(easilly seen with a straightedge) on one of my wheels and required a little filing to fix.  The important thing to consider with a listeroid is to take nothing for granted:) 
Good Luck.       

[Gippslander]

What Mike said.  Te split collar like he pictured is what you want.  I ordered mine thru fastenall.

That key pic initially posted almost looks like it would if the wheel was on the shaft backwards... 

The key holds the wheel on the shaft mainly thru friction between the inside of the hub and the shaft opposite the keyway.  Jacks article is great particularly in the area of metal prep to help reduce corrosion once the assembly is put together. 

One hint I will add is that it is way easier to seat the key initially if you rotate the shaft so the keyway is on the bottom.  That way the contact area in the hub is already fully in contact with the shaft and you are not having to lift it with the key taper like you would be if the keyway is pointing up.

Indian machine work being what it is. I would definitely check that the key taper matches the flywheel taper.  Keyway down helps with the test fitting process as well.  I used candle soot on the key and looked for witness marks on the key after lightly tapping the key into the keyway and filing where the contact marks are untill the contact area covers as much of the key surface as possible.  The keys that came with mine were off by a considerable ammount... The flywheel keyway taper was also not constant(easilly seen with a straightedge) on one of my wheels and required a little filing to fix.  The important thing to consider with a listeroid is to take nothing for granted:) 
Good Luck.       

Thanks . Yes I have been reading your old posts on this subject and I have been learning  quite a lot .

I do have some basic measuring equipment - Dial gauges and micrometers , even a small surface plate .

I have a couple of ST3 units , I got a good deal on them , $150 each new .

I live in a rural area , dairy farms mainly .

[xyzer]

"That key pic initially posted almost looks like it would if the wheel was on the shaft backwards..."

  "The important thing to consider with a listeroid is to take nothing for granted:)  "    

Wise statements!

[Gippslander]

found this pic of the gib key on this page , with a collar . Thanks for the pics  MIKE .. been wondering why your crankshaft is coloured  purple ? A colour match with that guys shirt !

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1204527312117.2030711.1196643274&l=76eb578eb0#!/photo.php?fbid=1981432294256&set=a.1204527312117.2030711.1196643274&type=3&l=76eb578eb0&theater

[mike90045]

both the crank and the water nipples were coated with something like dykem, and the flywheels looked like they were on solid, and haven't moved since, so I'm not touching them.