Author Topic: Injection Timing Method  (Read 13030 times)

bob b

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Injection Timing Method
« on: October 19, 2014, 11:17:04 PM »
 

 I can't spill time for beans for some reason. Ends up being late big time.  Probably me.

 So I recorded this with my phone. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_s13H9ojv3lS3AwaGNiaHBpNXVKX045dGtQYkotYlRRWGpR/view?usp=sharing

  Then I just slow the video way down with editing software. I'll be trying a little more advance.

  Any reason this won't work?

 

dieselgman

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 12:21:44 AM »
Using the beginning of the injector creak (sound) as your indicator? I suppose if it works for you, then it is fine and also fairly creative and simple. I have never tried to use sound and slow-motion video for performing this task but I have seen it done with the injector out of the head and it's spray directed onto the flywheel rim... many ways to skin a cat! Personally, I am kind of stuck on the original Lister method of pulling the delivery valve and using a capillary tube to visually see precisely where the plunger starts (and stops) fuel delivery.

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fabricator

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2014, 12:38:31 AM »
It's pretty much impossible to know what you are doing by watching that. Do you have an exact TDC mark? Do you have a pointer mounted on the engine so you can tell exactly where that line is in relation to the spill mark on your flywheel?
If you do it right you will find you can get it pretty much spot on.
BioDiesel Brewer

bob b

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2014, 01:26:27 AM »

  Yes, I'm using the creak sound as the reference. Isn't that the injector firing?


 

bob b

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2014, 01:56:30 AM »

  You may need to turn your volume up to hear it.

  The 2 pieces of reflective white tape are TDC.

fabricator

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2014, 02:44:20 AM »
IMHO that aint gonna cut it, you need a sharp pointer pointed at a thin scribed line in the flywheel, I tried the creak method a few times but could never get as close as the method DGman describes.
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ronmar

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2014, 06:10:09 AM »
Interesting...  You can also use an electret mic and audio amp to trigger a standard inductive pickup timing light.  I drew a drawing for this quite a while back.  Here is the drawing, I am not sure if the parts are still available from Radio Shack though as this was discussed quite a long while back:)

Using this device, the live running timing with the spill timing set correctly on mine was around 1 degree or less before TDC if I recall correctly.



When you did your spill timing, did you unscrew the top fitting off of the injector pump and remove the little check valve core and spring?  It is under the fitting that the lower end of the injector hardline connects to, and easilly missed.  IF you don't remove that check valve core, fuel cannot flow freely thru the pump when the pump piston is low enough to expose/open the port.  The spill timing point is the point that the IP fuel inlet port just closes(start of the pump stroke where fuel pressure just starts to build). So fuel should flow freely before the spill point and stop right at the spill timing point.  You have to be carefull because if you continue to turn the wheel the pump piston will give the impression that fuel is still flowing.  One way I do it is to start with the wheel between the spill point and TDC. this is where i remove the pump top fitting and check valve.  I reverse the wheel ahead of the spill point untill fuel just starts to flow out the top, then I move the wheel a little in it's normal direction of rotation and stop. Then I watch to see if the fuel stops.  If not, move a bit more and stop then look at the flow, repeate untill the fuel has stopped. Onother way I have done it is to set that little check valve core rod into it's hole.  It will set there and keep fuel from flowing when the port is open by it's weight alone.  Once the port closes, the piston will push fuel upward and that little valve core will lift up. the point where the core first starts to move should be the spill point.   

Your method has potential for error, as does my audio pickup/inductive trigger. At what point exactly are you and your ear calling the injector fired?  At what point exactly is my amp triggering the timing light? I did some experiments with my setup using the triggered strobe to look at the injector spraying fuel outside the engine.  The spray cloud starts, builds in size then dissipates. The timing light fired just after the start of the spray, but is this considered the "firing point"?  I have no idea...   We also do not know exactly where the running timing is supposed to be anyway.  The only timing spec for these engines IS the spill timing point...
As always my .02
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38ac

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2014, 02:25:23 PM »
I suspect that eye/ear/brain coordination will come into play and cause error. However if  you could experience it on an engine or two that you knew were correctly timed. You could probably then get very close by  repeating what you experienced on them.  I don't quite get the problems with spill timing but if that cannot be learned then viable options exist. Buy a spare fuel pipe and bend it so it holds the ijector at 12:00 and sprays on the flywheel rim or goto ebay and type in "diesel pulse adaptor" and usually there are some on there that can be had for less than $200.   

Also have you verified your TDC mark? Some of the Indian  marks are at 12:00 at TDC, some are down by the injection pump where there is supposed to be a (finger cutting SOBitchen  >:( ) pointer mounted on one of the pump bolts.
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buickanddeere

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2014, 07:15:26 PM »
Iirc some mechanics just pipe the shop airline to the injection pump supply side . Then listen for a hiss at the injection pump outlet fitting ?

dieselgman

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2014, 07:26:42 PM »
We have a test rig for multi-cylinder engines that uses air-pressure as suggested - and the pump outlets are piped into a fuel container where you can easily see any air bubbles escaping. That is more complicated than necessary - especially on the old slow-speed Lister singles.

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bob b

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2014, 09:10:20 PM »

  I've done it both ways as described by Ronmar with the same repeatable results.
  Too late to even run.  I "fudge" it and it starts right up. 
  Maybe something isn't right with my pump and/or injector.
  I'll try pulling the injectors to see the spray.   And try to get some video.
  Hopefully I can get some decent video for comment.
  I'm still going to pursue the video timing thing, because it's fun. I can tell exactly where its creaking with stop motion and the audio meter.
 How about a knock detector? Would it be  -  advance until it knocks then back off a little?

 
 
 

bob b

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2014, 09:57:43 PM »

  Oh and thanks for the advice!!

bob b

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2014, 10:37:32 PM »
  Heres a video of how it runs. I decompress #1, let it recover, decompress # 2 and let it recover

  Does it sound right?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_s13H9ojv3lNk5teXBIVjh6d3dJb1FEX0RUSExyZVplQi1Z/view?usp=sharing

  I haven't worked on this thing in years. Just used it for power failures. Maybe 20 hours total.

  Damn, the old bitch gets under your skin when you start fiddlin. Good stuff!!!

  I want to see what an injector fan looks like ;D I won't spray it in my eye.

  Thanks for listening!

bob b

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2014, 01:25:38 AM »

   Even I know this aint right. Looks more like a morning pee.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_s13H9ojv3lX3NQQ0NSbW1fcUg2VUdQMXJLVUdsM3A1dkFF/view?usp=sharing



   But would this affect the way it spill timed?

  What could I soak it in? Acetone, Lacquer thinner, Smirnoff's (Please say Smirnoff's)

  Thanks guys for your help. I really appreciate it.

bob b

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Re: Injection Timing Method
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 02:41:00 AM »


  Well, I installed a spare injector I had in my #1 cylinder. It had a much finer mist pattern. The long number was the same but the 3 digit in the oval was different. One says Mico bosch india, the new just has bosch india. Might have another one but I don't think it liked the first one.  Now it just belches black smoke (used to be white) and it won't tick over enough to let me get to the #2 decompressor and get it running :(

  Tomorrow I'll try to spill time and see if that changed. After I make some decent friggin wrenches.

  I think its mad cause I called it a bitch.

  Sorry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - bitch.

  Ahh,  she knows I love her