Protection and control revissited

[t19]

Sounds good to me, painted in a nice green... no pink!!

[Doug]

Actualy Metalec inc can only provides me with enclosers in grey or hydro green. Thats not entirely true, there is a non epoxy red for electrical equipment intened for use central blasting systems.
I won't build that stuff, makes scary noises.....

So I guess I'm prototyping a box, great my wife will be so pleased

Doug

[SCOTT]

Doug
This is an older thread, but I was wondering if you have made any progress with an "off the gen head" contlol/ meter panel?

I am interested if you have. As for a source of meters here is a link to some analog meters (volts current, frequency avaliable in both DC and AC)

http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/SearchResults.asp?N=0&Ntt=ammeter+panel+meter&Ntk=Primary&i=0&sid=4580940074EE617F

I am sure these can be sourced cheaper from China, but I am not sure the quantity the members here would want would  justify the cost and hassle of importation. 
On the other hand, you being familiar with this type of application, you may be able to offer them as an upgrade ala George and his lister and ST head upgrade kits. 

Scott

[Doug]

I never bothered to follow up.

My best advice too you and everyone else is to scavange what you can and build around that. I have a limmited stock of parts most has been given out or remains spoken for.

If enough people ask for it I can build few, but a one off is too expensive. A basic uinit has to be designed ( this is easy). Then I need to quote for the enclosers, parts ect and come up with a final price for the group.

The basic ST head box is crap. George is selling a steel cover plate and rectifier. A good remote pack that meets ESA requirements will cost more ( obviously because I would be selling system not a steel cover and 10 dollar bridge ).

At some point when I turn my attention to wiring, I'll post a complete work up of parts and print to follow.

Doug

[jtodd]

I'd be interested in any web links, model numbers, or manufacturers from anyone who has found:

  - pyrometers (full solutions - probe and gauge) with or without alarm closure outputs
  - ammeters with alarm closure outputs
  - voltmeters with alarm closure outputs
  - thermometers with alarm closure outputs
 
Of course, I'd prefer as "analog" a system as possible - I can't repair chips.  However, I'll take what I can get so any and all links are appreciated.  It's easy to find most of the gauges since marine and auto systems use many of the same components.  However, a gauge that has a switch closure on over/under conditions is REALLY tough to find, at least from my perspective, not being in the business of industrial electronic controls...  I ask for these things at parts counters of electrical shops and industrial supply houses and they just stare and me and say 'OK, what's the part number and manufacturer?'
 
I have a tach with over/under alarm outputs that I found on eBay, so that part is taken care of. 

[Doug]

Jtodd:

The people you are dealing with are @#!$% .

Want brands are part number do they ?

Tell them you would like to see a list of Crompton analog panel meters...
Tell them you would like to see a list of Hammond, Ralston, or Stallin brand electrical enclosers ( Nema 4 style ).

If this doesn't work do a web search of these companies and find a part number go back and find someone with a bit of ambition and a desire to make a sale.

I truely hate the blank stares I get from the guys who sell tools around my parts...

Do you have any whitworth or BSF taps?  Duh... "No we don't sell that brand". Ah.. hand me your Spaner Catalog you twit and let me show you what A BSF tap is....

If enough people ask I will see if its possile to put together a DIYers kit for this. I'll get the box, parts make the holes, wire markers and prints. Everything you need to build a top notch control box and bundle it up with a how too post and pictures. This will cost, but in the spirit of being hopnest and open I'll post my cost for parts and come up with a Very modest bill for my time to get this all together.

Doug

[Technonut]

Jtodd:

The people you are dealing with are @#!$% .

Want brands are part number do they ?

Tell them you would like to see a list of Crompton analog panel meters...
Tell them you would like to see a list of Hammond, Ralston, or Stallin brand electrical enclosers ( Nema 4 style ).

If this doesn't work do a web search of these companies and find a part number go back and find someone with a bit of ambition and a desire to make a sale.

I truely hate the blank stares I get from the guys who sell tools around my parts...

Do you have any whitworth or BSF taps?  Duh... "No we don't sell that brand". Ah.. hand me your Spaner Catalog you twit and let me show you what A BSF tap is....

If enough people ask I will see if its possile to put together a DIYers kit for this. I'll get the box, parts make the holes, wire markers and prints. Everything you need to build a top notch control box and bundle it up with a how too post and pictures. This will cost, but in the spirit of being hopnest and open I'll post my cost for parts and come up with a Very modest bill for my time to get this all together.

Doug

Count me in as interested and asking.....

[jtodd]

Jtodd:

The people you are dealing with are @#!$% .

Want brands are part number do they ?

Tell them you would like to see a list of Crompton analog panel meters...
Tell them you would like to see a list of Hammond, Ralston, or Stallin brand electrical enclosers ( Nema 4 style ).

Yes, I've not found much enthusiasm for my project with the various parts desks I've encountered.  I don't represent a lot of "repeat" purchases for them, so most try to hustle me out as quickly as possible to make room for larger customers.

So, you've given me a good number of places to start with Crompton.  I really just need some manufacturers and then Google and I can have a nice afternoon hunting down the part numbers.  I've already got some nice aluminum NEMA enclosures courtesy of the US government's surplus process, and I'm happy to make my own wire panels and everything else - I'm just having problems with gauge sources for the panel.

The Crompton stuff looks very nice, but the list prices made my eyeballs jump out of my head on springs (>$500 for most of the nice gauges.)  I'm an "analog" kind of guy, and it seems that the analog gauges are actually more expensive than the digital stuff, at least for new.  eBay has got some interesting leads on various protection relays by Crompton, but none of them are quite right and I'm not sure if I can even adjust the mhz for use with my slower setup since most of them are configured for fairly fast RPMs.   A combination of gauge and over/under protection relay seems to be a pretty tough mix to find as a single component, so possibly they will be separate elements in the control panel.  This would allow me to make a reasonably nice-looking panel with consistent gauge appearances, and then hide all the ugly protection relays inside the enclosure.  (I don't focus on appearance, but if it's a mostly equal choice I'll go for a nice presentation.)

Gauges and alarms/relays needed (assume "alarm" means a relay):

AC voltage (over/under alarm)
AC amperage (over/under alarm)
DC voltage (no alarm needed)
DC amperage (no alarm needed)
RPMs (over/under alarm)
Temperature, water jacket (over alarm)
Temperature, exhaust pyrometer (no alarm needed)
Temperature, oil (over alarm)
Temperature, fuel@pump (no alarm needed)
Temperature, fuel@main tank (relay needed)
Hour meter (no alarm needed)
Fuel gauge, primary (no alarm needed)
Fuel gauge, start tank (no alarm needed)

Links I found:
  http://www.k-tech.com/Crompton/Crompton-Index.htm

In any case, count me in as being interested in the parts list as well.  Anything helps.

JT

[Doug]

One place you can skimp and save money is metering. You rarely look at this stuff, but if you buy quality stuff with a proper movement it will last a life time.

I like the Crompton for one simple reason it never gives you trouble....
This type of metering is designed for industrial aplications and this reflects the price. The prices can be a shock but this is realy inexpensive when compared to electronic metering that every one wants now. Cheaper stuff will work just as well and may not last as long or be as accurate but will serve the purpose.

Time permitting ( and this is in short suply for me ) I'll get some part number for some lower end stuff that has the same physical size as the higher end meters and I'll post it.

Elecrtrical enclosers present a problem for guys who want to use mechanical gauges because the hard lines won't work with the swing of the door. I can get some made with the back hinged and the panel insert mounted on that but the cost.....

Give me some time and I'll see what I can do.

Doug

[jtodd]

I found a line of Crompton computerized systems that were specifically designed for generator operation.  They seem too good to be true, and pretty much measure/manage everything under the sun.  I think that they're shiny and neat, but perhaps overkill for a Listeroid and also possibly too complex for the application for most Lister-based gensets... but we'll see what the price is.

Go to this URL:  http://www.crompton-instruments.com/genset.html  and then on the right hand side of the screen select "Gen-Set controllers" from the pull-down menu.  (Terrible design.)  That will get you a big PDF file of all their generator control sets, which are VERY comprehensive and full-featured.  I have asked for pricing on the "top of the line" unit (GEN-TRANS-EN/L) which seems to bundle all the possible components into a single panel, and I'm preparing the defibrilator for when I receive the quote.   There is also a software package (GEN-SOFT) which allows monitoring of all the measurements over time, which is really interesting to me.  If I can reverse-engineer the RS-232 protocol on the serial port, I could possibly write my own shims to turn output from the GEN-TRANS into SNMP-compliant values for monitoring via other systems that I already have in place.

Putting all my eggs in one basket goes against my "KISS" principle, but those panels would save me days of debugging and dozens of components. Plus, it's not an analog system which would be much more robust than a computer-controlled platform like the GEN-TRANS product lines.  However, I'm sure I can put some shunts in for emergency operation, and I plan to have the whole panel wired up with quick-release bulkhead attachments, and so maybe I'll make a computer-controlled head unit and a more crude analog relay-controlled unit with the same quick-connect mount.

They provide transfer switch control and generator starting, as well, which is interesting since I'll have at least the auto-start on my system (and yes, they detect start failures and can cycle through various start options.)  As I said, it's too good to be true, so I'm not getting my heart set on it.

I'll post here what the pricing is for the various possible devices.

JT

[Doug]

Your over thinking this.

Just use common off the shelf parts like the cooling fan temperature switch and over temp for a front wheel drive GM car or something....
A float switch for a low fule shut down..
Oil presure switch or what ever it is you need .

Hard wire up some simple bits and pieces together.

Remember once you get this thing running and commisioned your not going to worry about most of this stuff you'll just listen, smell, feel and know if something is wrong.

Doug

[Rod]

        Hello, I'm new to forums so I hope this goes ok. I'm building a Power Line 16-2 with a 10Kw single phase gen. I've got it going pretty good but still need to calm the governor (got it down to a mild hunt). My problem - question is, we need to keep the load up around 6Kw to keep the engine happy (I'm told the engine should have about 2/3 max load or more at all times). There are times when I'll need the full 10Kw, there are also times when the load will be almost nothing.  My thought is to have two basic circuts- lets call them Primary and Secondary. The Primary being what's already here, water pump, frig., lights etc. For the secondary I'm thinking a few ele. heaters. Now here's what I'm not sure about- A control that will add the heaters when the load drops, and shed them when something in the primary circut cuts in. Of course we don't add or drop all the heaters at once, just enough to keep things in a preset range. The control would need to sence, lets say, the pump cutting in and shut down an ele. heater that would equal the 1/2 horse pump load. Once the pump shuts down, the control would pick up the heater again.
    I'm sure someone makes a control like this but where do you find it, and especially at a fair price? If we find this, my next question will be what do I do for a secondary load in the summer?
    I've been reading this forum for a week of so and really enjoy some of the off topic stuff, you sound like a very interesting bunch, best part being a mechanical inclination with brains enough to READ outside the box - why don't people read?
           Rod

[Doug]

there are a couple of ways to do this...

I need to go looking in the stock room and see what I can assemble on the cheap to do this. Right of the top of my head I think an "Airtronics" current sensor realy could be adapted to pick up and drop out a load for you like this....

Later....
I have a CS*10H001C020A*H here in my hand. Never tried this but I'll wire it up to sometyhing and see how it behaves

Doug

[Rod]

         Doug:
        Will this be able to drop a few circuts, one at a time, or would I be able to use more than one in the set up. I have six different things that come on when they want, the frig. two chest freezers and three motors for water,(we're removing radon from the water).

[Doug]

This is just a current sensor with a 1 second delay timer. Above a certain current setting it turns on then drops out when the load goes below a preset. You need to build around that. this one has a 10 amp contact rating but thats just assumed for pilot duty....

Its just whats on hand, and probably the cheapest thing you will find to do it....

Doug

What you want to do is more complicated than first glance. I need time to play with this, maybe some other timers cascaded and you going to want a prioroty lock out for the important loads. Idealy the way to wire up something like this would be with a small PLC programed to watch priority loads. I had some that could do this but I gave them away....

This might not be practical, and likely will cause you grief.