Protection and control revissited

[Doug]

There have been a few peple emailing me about how to build controls, metering and where to buy parts for a Listeroid electric plant.

If you haver a good parts source please speak up, if you buiilt one please post what you did and what your thought process was behind you choices.
If you want to build or buy something speak up, electricity isn't something to muck about with if your not sure and I think we'ev reached a critical mass of knoledge and experience on the forum now to start talking about ways to build in reliability and safety on a buget.

Doug

[mobile_bob]

Doug:

i am with you on this topic

seems to me that first an overview of what type of contolls are needed, basic? comprehensive? protection? scheduling?
shedding? or a combination of all or part?

there are sources of all sorts of surplus relays, breakers, meters etc, etc.

i have been collecting parts for years to assemble what i feel is needed for my installation.

i would certainly like to hear from others as to what they anticipate needing or would like to see, along with sound and practical solutions.

sounds like a good addition to the forum a section dealing only with these issues, where one can post a problem and others can provide solutions.

i like it

bob g

[GuyFawkes]

IMHO ideally you need.

---------------------
METERS

DC voltmeter
DC ammeter
AC voltmeter
AC genset <> ground voltage difference meter
AC ammeter
AC frequency meter
Engine Hour meter
RPM Crankshaft
Oil temp gauge
Exhaust gas pyrometer

-----------------------
SWITCHES

DC double pole isolation switch
AC isolation switch
AC RCD

------------------------
CONTROLS

If you have it, fuel valve solenoid
If you have it, rack shutdown solenoid
If you have it, decompressor solenoid
If you have it, electric start

-------------------------
ALARMS

Low / High DC voltage
Low / High AC voltage
High water temp (site two sensors, one low in case of leaks or airlock and one high)
High oil temp
Overspeed
Exhaust gas pyrometer

---------------------------
"CLEVER" ALARMS

Two water temp sensors read outside pre-set range (leak or air lock or boiling or block)
Oil temp outside certain range (will detect low oil too)
Crankshaft RPM and AC freq outside preset range (slipping or broken belt)
Vibration, link it to RPM (will detect all sorts of incipient problems)
Slogging, link exhaust pyrometer and AC ammeter to "brownout" by reducing revs or trip certain loads offline.

Ideally do it all modular, so you can start with just meters and switches, then add alarms etc as time / money / need requires.

[mobile_bob]

Guy:

just for clarification purposes,

DC volt and ammeter?  for monitoring battery charging or for monitoring rotor current, or both?

AC volts and amps,,, generator output?

AC genset to ground, to assure ground bonding?

hour, freq, rpm, temp, pressure , all good

pyro, perhaps for curiosity sake

a very complete set of parameters you have outlined i would say.
just wondering where to mount the dilithium crystal?  hehe (only kidding)

bob g

[Doug]

That's a lot to ask for Guy:
How about your first name now too. I'm suprised no one else has called you on that GuyFawkes thing yet...

IF, and this is a HUGE IF enough people are interested, I know people and can have custom electrical enclosers built. Very high quality stuff.... And I can make a bulk order of instrumentation and squeeze the cost down.

I will not build your boxes for you!!!!
But I think I can assemble a kit at a better price than most here can manage by themselves.

I loath the idea of even brining this up, but its obvious there is a need and industrial controls IS my buisness ( or rather my own buisness ). I'm not intersted in making a buck off people here, in fact I encourage all who read this post to DIY, just don't muck things up and get hurt.

Doug

[mobile_bob]

Doug:

an industrial control guy,,, hmmmmm 
i am sure i can use your input as time goes along.

i do have a question for you now though,

i have an allen bradley double contactor, 3 phase size 0
it was meant as a motor reversing setup so it is mechanically interlocked and electically interlocked

could i use that as the switch gear between two gensets feeding one load, so as to be able to shut down one set for mantainence
while the other is up and running. or between genset and batter/inverter power.

seems it would work well for what i have planned, yes/no?

bob g

[GuyFawkes]

Guy:

just for clarification purposes,

DC volt and ammeter?  for monitoring battery charging or for monitoring rotor current, or both?

I'd assumed service battery 12 / 24 VDC

AC volts and amps,,, generator output?

aye

AC genset to ground, to assure ground bonding?

yup, it was a common fault on boats, and I've seen it a few times on gen sets, not just about fatal voltages but about electrolytic damage in the cooling water circuit.

hour, freq, rpm, temp, pressure , all good

mmm

pyro, perhaps for curiosity sake

no, not curiosity, low exhaust temp = efficiency, so you can monitor carbon build up in heads, injector problems, air filter issues and much much more once you establish baseline temps for any given load / rack position.

pyrometer is a vastly useful and informative instrument

a very complete set of parameters you have outlined i would say.
just wondering where to mount the dilithium crystal?  hehe (only kidding)

bob g

in the warp drive core, where else? lol

[mobile_bob]

Guy:
"pyrometer is a vastly useful and informative instrument"

i understand the usefullness of a pyrometer on engines that are running at near rated loading and rpm, but..
they are of little real info on part load operation which these engines are likely to spend alot of their time running.

not sure if i would incorporate one unless my application was running at near rated load.

now an opacity meter might be useful, perhaps a photoresister across from a white lead in the exhaust stream might be useful, to
trip out loads if loading got to a point of causing excessive smoke. hmmm maybe? or used in conjuction with a pyrometer to control a
dump load and keep the engine up to rated load for cogeneration... ya,,, maybe?

bob g

[Doug]

Bob you could use that reversing contactor for both of those ideas....

I have one here, its only rated at 30 amp or 5kw. Thats the sort of thing people should look for simple easy reliable

Doug

[mobile_bob]

yes and rebuildable!

bob g

[Doug]

Your still going to need some local disconnects with that Bob for the inverter and MG set, but I think its possible to build all this in a standard size 3 enclosure or simmilar aproved box. I'd look around for some 30 Amp rotory door mount disconect switches, no fancy interlocks are required since your contactors already do this.

Always remember to follow proper grounding and bonding and wiring methods. Get it inspected by you local electrical authority for safety and so your insurance company is happy.

Doug

[trigzy]

Hi Doug & List,
                   I'm still here, and I'd like to apologize for my absense.  My company has decided to "relocate" my place of employment from London ON to Toronto ON    So I've been busy trying to get things organized for all that encompasses.

All sorts of chinese mechanical meters/voltage regulators should be able to be had for cheap, once I get the order papaerwork signed and sent off.  Volt, Amp & Hz meters are on order...........if anyone can think of any other "special" thing they might like, please let me know.


Steve

[t19]

kewl  I go to Toronto all the time   Volt AC-DC, AMP AC-DC, Watt, hour would be a good start

[mobile_bob]

put me down for volt (ac and dc) amp(ac and dc up to 300 amp) kwatt,  and freq meters would be cool
or let me know what you can get, and if you can ship to the states

very cool
bob g

[Doug]

This is good now we are making progress...

Now having looked over the very basic doghouse on the ST's its obvious this needs an upgrade and not just a cover. I can have a custom csa aproved electrcial encloser made by the company that suplies me with the extra thick steel all weld construction "mine grade" enclosers.
This will be more expensive than off the shelf boxes, but since they would be custom I can get what ever I like built. Here is my thought process. A big enough encloser to make room for all the functions that people here are asking for, a reversed Nema 12 encloser with the panel insert mounted in a rear facing door so you ca mount mechanical hard line gauges in the front and still have plenty of room for relays, timers or what ever you guys want inside.
The company I deal with produces electrical enclosers, that are sand blasted before being painted with high quality epoxy paint or 316 stainless steel. There is also the option to have a built in compartment for a local disconect switch or a circut braker box. All this of course would be CSA aproved for your home insurance. Between Steve, I'm sure can come up with several parts kits and wiring harnesses to keep costs down.

As I said before I never ment to head down this road, but if there is a demand I'm sure something can be done that won't brake the bank....

Doug