Puppeteer

Author Topic: Going to India: What Can I Do?  (Read 8655 times)

bajajoaquin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Going to India: What Can I Do?
« on: July 15, 2014, 08:45:31 PM »
Hi, all. I registered some time ago, and have been a lurker, but never posted before today. I'm interested in a Lister engine mostly because I like them. I live in urban Southern California, so I don't really have a great need for backup power, nor an off-grid solution. Which is why I've just lurked: I'm not really a serious contributor to the forum.

However, I've started a new job, and will be traveling to India some time in the next several weeks, and will probably go annually for work. There's not really any time this first time to do extensive Listeroid searching, but I was wondering what I can do to lay groundwork. At this point, I'm just going to get to know the people I work with, and probably feel out how familiar they are with stuff like this.

My original plan was to source a block, since I understand that other parts are available here as "replacements." But some other reading suggests that exporting parts is more difficult (expensive) than exporting whole assemblies. Whole engines are against EPA regulations. So I'm trying to put together a long-term plan of attack.

If you were going to try to acquire (assemble, purchase, build, whatever) a Listeroid on the cheap and you had access to India, what would you try to accomplish on the first trip?

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 11:32:06 PM »
I could give you some pointers if you like... where in India will you be working?
Second set of questions would have to do with your access to freight services... you could probably move some stuff as personal property and duck a lot of the red-tape involved with import/export.
There is not really any "on the cheap" answer for freight unless you are military connected.
Third set of questions would have to do with your desired equipment... most likely best to purchase a complete unit and dismantle yourself for shipment as parts.

dieselgman
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

32 coupe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 531
  • "Doc Johnson" on call !
    • View Profile
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2014, 12:31:49 AM »
They are big. They are heavy.....
"on the cheap"....we'd all like that...

I"m still trying to figure out how to move my 2 engines 1/2 way across the "lower 48".

Keep us posted. I'm curious as to how this works out.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 12:33:35 AM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

bajajoaquin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2014, 05:39:23 AM »
I could give you some pointers if you like... where in India will you be working?
Second set of questions would have to do with your access to freight services... you could probably move some stuff as personal property and duck a lot of the red-tape involved with import/export.
There is not really any "on the cheap" answer for freight unless you are military connected.
Third set of questions would have to do with your desired equipment... most likely best to purchase a complete unit and dismantle yourself for shipment as parts.

dieselgman

Yes, pointers please! But you have already helped. The comment about freight is a "duh" but of course. Also, looking at the personal property guidelines, I might be able to make something happen. 

I'm interested in a Lister CS 6/1.

The best way you've helped is by me looking at your signature, and going to your website. You have CSs for sale for $1200. That's about half of what I expected to see. So it's hard for me to think in terms of paying half that or a quarter of that, spread over several years, and the assembly, when I could just purchase it all together!

I'll be in Bangalore. I'm in marketing, and my new company has an office there. Not a lot of Listers in the center of the city, I'd imagine, but I thought I'd get to know people, and see what pops up. In blacksmithing, there's a rule if you're looking for anvils: ask everyone you know if they have one. People you wouldn't expect will say yes. Maybe it will work for Listers, too.

Any tips or comments you have would be great.

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 08:46:47 AM »
There is no shortage nor any problem sourcing the 6/1 in India but the major parts sources are in Gujarat. We do business mostly out of Rajkot now, but also have some good contacts in Mumbai and Pune. If you have some good old cash, you will easily find what you want. These things are still available surprisingly cheap there and the US Dollar is still strong versus the Rupee. You can specify your parts quality if you can find the right people to do business with... keep in mind that this stuff is likely to be 100% cottage industry - common parts pools shared by all as they are mostly run by family networks who specialize in just one (or just a few) related parts. Do not try to buy on best price... rather go after technical specifications - best to remain with original Dursley design... then go after highest quality. We have found that India generally lacks full transparency in business practices and that most will go to great lengths with fabrications in order to try and obtain your business. Being there in person, hiring a local person with good reputation, and the fact that you are going after a single item purchase - all can work in your favor. Do not expect Western style morality and business practices... they get very good lip service, but much less put into actual application. I do not mean to paint all with the same negative brush exactly, but there is for sure a significant cultural difference regarding the definitions and applications of morality and ethics. This was a hard lesson for me personally (I view all without prejudice), but I have traveled and done a fair amount of business there... this is just another sad "sign of the times".

As for our old website, it is archival and left up for general informational purposes... but the pricing is from 2008 before the import ban and other price hikes (especially shipping/import costs) hit home. It is not legal for us to advertise these things for sale in the USA either, so we do not touch the web archive nor supply any updates. The intent is for us to remain within legally defensible guidelines but still retain at least some kind of visible web presence. We no longer sell Lister engines unless they are true antiques (grandfathered under the law) but we do still supply ALL of the parts involved from a very large Midwest USA based inventory. At least EPA has not legislated away all of our rights to keep and maintain the old equipment. You can still get what you need here in the USA without going into the import and shipping business yourself.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 08:50:18 AM by dieselgman »
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

bajajoaquin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 05:36:58 PM »
You're killing my dreams!

:)

I now remember seeing that your website is archived. I had this same feeling of elation/deflation before.

There is absolutely no intent to get into the import/export business. Just trying to see if going to India for other business reasons (read: on someone else's nickle) would be of any benefit to me. I've also remembered that there's a family friend with some business interests in Bangalore, so I'll see what he has to say. We have vendors in Pune, so I may be headed there on a future trip.

My goal for this (other than the work I'm paid to do there) is really just to get to know the lay of the land a bit. I will likely be going back at least annually, and more often some years. Since I've been interested in Listers for at least 7 years without having one, there's no reason I can't wait a little longer.

Another silly question, but do you know off-hand the cut-off year for old engines to be acceptable? Is there a used market in India? Since I don't really have a work requirement for an engine, the major use it would see would likely be at the 2x yearly events at the Antique Gas and Steam Engine Museum (agsem.org) where I'm a member. Antique isn't a requirement, especially for something like a Listeroid, but it sure would be a benefit. Wouldn't resolve the freight problem, but would address the "get one whole" point you made.

Your points about doing business in India are well taken. I've only been on this job for 3 weeks, but I am seeing some of what you mention already.

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 06:42:11 PM »
Import can be easy for you as an individual as long as you have a good broker to file timely paperwork. I do not remember offhand what the date cutoffs for various EPA prohibitions are, 2010 was the last year for a stationary engine exemption. There are other factors in the law that I seem to remember pushing the grandfather clause backwards a little bit. Listeroids are typically marketed without serial numbers or any other date references... this would make it very difficult to document a grandfathered engine for customs purposes unless you had an original invoice for it dated many years in the past. It is easy to dismantle and handle it as parts rather than an engine. There is an outfit in Canada that identifies theirs as "air-compressors" and sidesteps the regulations in that way. I believe that they have the fuel injection components in a separate kit.

There is certainly a used market in India, but who outside of the third-world would want to mess with a used and possibly worn out Listeroid? New ones of good quality can be had for as little as $800 to $900 at point of assembly. Labor is quite inexpensive over there so you could have most of the dismantling and crating services for very little extra cost. I think the difficult task will be in determining the quality of the actual product you receive. They produce these in several grades... highest grade should be the parts made for individual export sale, then export-grade completed assemblies, then all the stuff they keep in their domestic markets - beware.

Take a look at Kirloskar if you get the chance... they have a major presence in Pune.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 06:51:06 PM by dieselgman »
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

bajajoaquin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 10:12:12 PM »
So you're saying that, as an individual, I wouldn't have the same restrictions on EPA compliance? I am not expecting an Official answer, I'd be sure to double-check. Or are you saying that I'd still have to import only parts, and couldn't legally import a whole engine?

Not to minimize the difficulty of finding a quality product (because I really don't discount it at all), I'd have to work with some locals with whom I'll be building relationships in the next year. I think I'll be able to get a sense of who can help with that sort of thing.

So I think that's my plan for this trip (which has been confirmed this morning as happening on Friday) is to get to know some people, ask a few questions, and see who knows whom. My new boss told me that I'll be going annually or more frequently. I'll get a sense of how much my colleagues will be interested in helping this endeavor or just humoring me.

Edited to add: Almost forgot. The Kirsolar site shows a whole series of Listeroids! I'm guessing the TV1 is the rough equivalent of the CS 6/1.
http://koel.kirloskar.com/agriengines/water-cooled

contaucreek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 619
    • View Profile
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2014, 12:01:44 AM »
Never mind the engines man think about the FOOD! Oh and those beautiful young Indian women.... :P
L.E.F. Dip #1 Threadstopper Extraordinaire

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 12:21:59 AM »
That Kirloskar TV1 model is a Petter copy - perhaps close to PH1 as far as I can tell. KOEL (Kirloskar Oil Engines) used to build CS copies as well and would be a good place to start If you are in Pune.

EPA compliance applies to all imported product - individuals as well as companies. Enforcement is likely less rigorous with individuals, but I would not risk it. You can dismantle quite easily for shipment.

Enjoy your trip, I think you will like the people and the country!

dieselgman
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

Tom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1746
  • Green power is good.
    • View Profile
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 12:23:52 AM »
The TV1 looks like a Petteroid to me. I don't see any CS/Listeroid type engines on the site.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

bajajoaquin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 07:02:33 AM »
Thanks guys. I leave tomorrow morning. I'll post back if anything interesting happens!

bajajoaquin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2014, 03:37:29 AM »
Greetings from Bangalore.

I've been here for a few days now, and no Listeroids. I didn't expect any, being in a city of 10,000,000, but I had some small hope....

I'm lucky to be staying and working in a very nice part of the city, so I'm able to walk the 1.5km to work in the morning. The traffic isn't anywhere near as bad as it's made out. But even in the nice parts of town, we're talking about very different levels of wealth. It's not a pretty city, but I'm enjoying it.

I've had several meetings with vendors, most of whom are located in Pune. It's looking like a trip there is in the cards for me in the next year. (that's the on-topic content)

So the search continues!

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2014, 04:42:41 AM »
Quote
The traffic isn't anywhere near as bad as it's made out. But even in the nice parts of town, we're talking about very different levels of wealth.

Wait till you try getting through Mumbai or Delhi! Those have to be the world's worst traffic jams - absolutely crazy free-for-alls. I had doubts I would survive it!
I was also stunned by the extremes of wealth and poverty juxtaposed on top of each other in those cities! - hard to imagine it coming from America.

I saw Listeroids running all kinds of stuff around the countryside and in the cities - from tractors and water pumps, to generators and cement mixers. I did not get to Bangalore though.

dieselgman
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
    • View Profile
Re: Going to India: What Can I Do?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2014, 02:22:12 PM »


I've had several meetings with vendors, most of whom are located in Pune. It's looking like a trip there is in the cards for me in the next year. (that's the on-topic content)

So the search continues!

 One of my Listeroids has a Pune address on it,, I think it is the KOEL/Kirloskar 8/1 ? Cant remember for sure. 

A trip there would be fun but probably not in the cards for me. A couple years ago we had a fairly active member, Ambuir?? or something like that? From his posts here he sounded like a neat guy.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel