Puppeteer

Author Topic: My CS 6/1 "baby's"  (Read 33109 times)

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2014, 05:36:44 PM »
Here's a couple pictures I took of my vent cap while running my Listeroid 6/1, pumping up my compressed air tank this morning.  It's a standard round duct vent cap I got at the local building supply store.  You will need a muffer- another consideration for your design.   It needs to have a fairly large expansion volume to work well- I tried a small "bullet type" auto muffler and it was worthless.  Perhaps you can find a spot for the muffler beside the cylinder or ???


http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0Absmbhk4cuGLnA

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0Absmbhk4cuGLp4

I expect you can find one locally.  

« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 08:05:48 PM by BruceM »

Pedro_at_Sea

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • HPV-NOMAD
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2014, 02:24:55 AM »
Hi Bruce,
thank you very much for the pictures  ;)
Simple as it can get ...

Muffler: do I have to mount a muffler ?
I really enjoy the sound of this engine and like to keep everything simple, just straight up and out.
A BIG muffler will take a lot of space.
On my last boat I made one myself, 5' long with an diameter of 5", worked fine.
I got this idea from experimental airplanes  ;)
Could do the same, but this construction is very heavy and cumbersome.
I guess I will try first without a muffler ..

Your suggestion, just beside the cylinder could work fine too, but I worry a bit about the radiated heat from the muffler.

I guess that have to be tried out in real conditions on the boat.

Thanks again for all your input and have a nice day
Pedro

LISTER CS 6/1 in my boat, LISTER CS 6/1 rebuild

I am a World-Citizen, I do not belong to any place or region. I claim the right to live and travel on any place on this globe.
                                                    utrinque paratus   ...     ubi panis ibi patria

Pedro_at_Sea

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • HPV-NOMAD
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2014, 06:37:33 AM »
Bruce,
I guess I am very close now to a good solution for my cooling system.
I will try to find a tractor exhaust, which I can mount straight on the cylinder, should not be too difficult to find one.
I can make one myself too ...
The drawings are self explanatory ...

We will make history with this cooling system  ;)

Have a great day
Pedro






LISTER CS 6/1 in my boat, LISTER CS 6/1 rebuild

I am a World-Citizen, I do not belong to any place or region. I claim the right to live and travel on any place on this globe.
                                                    utrinque paratus   ...     ubi panis ibi patria

Pedro_at_Sea

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • HPV-NOMAD
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2014, 11:57:53 AM »
Hi glort,
thanks for your suggestions  ;)

If I would put the muffler higher, the diameter of the vent pipe would have to be much wider, which I like to avoid.
A big wave over the deck and everything is cleared up.

I also believe that I will not need a muffler at all and will try that attempt first.

Air intake silencer is much more needed and I guess an BIG oil bath air filter will do the best job.

On my last boat I had a big Dorade Vent on top of my steering house which brought fresh air via an 12" pipe into the engine room, worked excellent, also on the anchorage.
Will do the same again and together with the big vent pipe perfect air circulation will occur.

Have a great day
Pedro


LISTER CS 6/1 in my boat, LISTER CS 6/1 rebuild

I am a World-Citizen, I do not belong to any place or region. I claim the right to live and travel on any place on this globe.
                                                    utrinque paratus   ...     ubi panis ibi patria

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2014, 02:38:37 PM »
As I look at these great (clean) drawings I wonder if wrapping the exhaust stack with a copper pipe would be enough to cool the engine?

Casey
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2014, 03:24:16 PM »
Casey- the exhaust is too hot for water cooling.  The induced draft effect provides an adequate airflow for radiator cooling but NOT nearly enough to chill an exhaust pipe to 100F !  

Regarding Glort's mention of intake noise:
Intake noise reportedly varies greatly between Listeroid engines- valve cam timing variability being the likely culpret, as in Rajkot, cam lobe placement is somewhat arbitrary, along with many other machining operations such as idler gear placement.

My own Metro 6/1 with 2001 marked parts does NOT have intake "bark".  I think Dave (XYZer) reported that one of his two 6/1's  does have intake "bark", and one does not.   The Solderberg (sp?) air compressor intake filter is reported to be extremely effective for "barkers", as it was designed specifically for this issue in air compressors.  Maybe someone with one can chime in with a model number for the unit that fits the 6/1 intake perfectly.

Checking and adjusting the intake timing lobe position seems the best solution, but my understanding was that true Lister CS engines very rarely have this problem.

I have a Listeroid 6/1 BECAUSE of the pleasant and low level of engine sound.   I had to add a no load sensor (auto shutdown after 10 minutes) to my 6/1 homebrew controller because I can't hear it at my distant house site to remember that it's on.   My biggest sound is the valve train clatter.  Ronmar has reported  using some additional soft springs between the rocker arm and pushrod end  to hold the valve tappets to the cam to eliminate this clacking sound.  If I had my 6/1 shipboard in close quarters, I'd use Ronmar's method to reduce that clack. My engine also has some diesel knock when it's time to clean carbon from the head, especially when it's cold.  

My other tip on sound reduction is to use the urethane foam in a can to make rows of small stripes on the inside of any sheet metal area that is resonating.  It deadens the sound marvelously.  Instead of "boing" you get "thunk" when tapping it.  Cheap and very effective for sheet metal sound problems, much cheaper and less messy than spraying foam (which also works very well).  I did not need to use foam for my induced draft setup; it did not increase exhaust noise much.

About mufflers and induced draft:
For induced draft on a low speed single cylinder engine, the expansion muffler may also help to lengthen the pressure pulses, and thus improve the draft.  I still get some pulsing of air flow on my setup so this a consideration.  I don't know how no or little muffler expansion will affect the induced draft, as I did not experiment with it.

I love the Rumely induced draft/thermosiphon radiator cooling approach for my Listeroid;  I would integrate it into my engine room like Pedro's design (to aid engine room ventilation, instead of one of my existing roof wind turbines) if I was starting over with a clean new design.  I'm very pleased, Pedro, that you also see the beauty of this older farm tractor technology for your application.  I also think your boat project is the most awesome application for the CS engine I've ever read about!

PS- Pedro, don't forget about your coolant expansion tank, which needs to be (just) above the high point of the radiator.  I'd want a coolant level sight tube, perhaps brought to an easily disconnected ?? plate in your above deck housing.  Small diameter silicone fuel tubing used for RC airplanes comes to mind.  Two quart capacity for the expansion tank is sufficient, it could be hand made to fit with soldered brass sheet if need be due to your tight design space. 

PPS- Alternately, to avoid complicating your vent housing removal, you could perhaps inset a small polycarbonate window in the vent housing, large enough to let some light in and see the coolant tank or level sight tube.  If you are going to have to lift the vent housing daily for oiling, then this is not necessary.  In your most current design, it might be possible to add a side access door to provide both oiling access and coolant level check, thus eliminating the need to lift the vent housing.

Best Wishes,
Bruce




« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:55:50 PM by BruceM »

Hugh Conway

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
    • View Profile
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2014, 04:33:51 PM »
Hello Pedro:

Wonderful project you have going there. You've started an interesting thread and provided us with great photos and design work.
Many years ago, I built and sailed a steel ocean-going boat, so here's my 2 cents worth......Where the air/exhaust hood penetrates the deck, build a sturdy hatch coaming. If the stack gets damaged or swept away, have an emergency hatch cover that could be quickly fastened in place to cover that big hole. Bad weather can happen, as you know.

I was amazed to see all that gunk inside of one of your engines! I have a 1951 Dursley with some of the same wear issues as you have encountered, but it was relatively clean inside when I first took it apart.

As for the Solberg intake filter/silencer, part number is  FS-19P-150. has 1 1/2 inch thread and will screw right onto a standard exhaust flange. Very effective,
I use one on my listeroid.

All the best with this project, please do keep up with posting your project. We are all with you!

Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

Pedro_at_Sea

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • HPV-NOMAD
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2014, 02:08:36 AM »
Hi Bruce,

The idea from Casey is not so bad, just not make a close coil around the exhaust !!!
A wide copper coil of 8" diameter could maybe do the job  ???

About noise: so far I really like the sound of my Lister Baby, but I have to see when it is in a close compartment in my boat.

The suggested Solberg intake muffler could not hurt at all, thanks for the tip.

"urethane foam in a can to make rows of small stripes on the inside of any sheet metal area", great idea, thanks.
For sure my big vent housing will resonate and this will be an easy solution to it.

Exhaust: I will experiment with that, will start with NO exhaust at all and see how it goes ...

I love the simplicity of the Rumely induced draft/thermosiphon radiator cooling system, simply genial ...

Expansion tank can easily be build, good idea to use silicon hose from RC planes, will follow your suggestion to use two hoses to the tank, one bigger for filling the system  ;)


Vent housing: definitely I will build in a side access door, will be very handy to access the cylinder head and also the cooing system.


Have a great day
Pedro


« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 03:25:56 AM by Pedro_at_Sea »
LISTER CS 6/1 in my boat, LISTER CS 6/1 rebuild

I am a World-Citizen, I do not belong to any place or region. I claim the right to live and travel on any place on this globe.
                                                    utrinque paratus   ...     ubi panis ibi patria

Pedro_at_Sea

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • HPV-NOMAD
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2014, 02:25:46 AM »
Casay

thanks for your input, something to think about  ;)
Using a 8" wide copper coil could work, have to try that out  ???


Hugh

I am glad that you like my project  ;)
Most peoples think I am crazy, but that is exactly the fun, to be different from the crowd ...

I thought about the deck coaming for mounting my vent housing, but had not an emergency hatch in my mind, thanks for reminding me, sometimes the sea can be very bad ... better be prepared !

Thanks for the Solberg info's, definitely cannot hurt to mount one.

Will post my progress here, for sure.

I am so glad that I have found this forum, it has many knowledgeable and very helpful members, great place to be.
Unbelievable what I have learned in just a few days here, has for sure saved me from  many costly mistakes   ;)
I cracked my head for many years to solve the cooling system on a boat, Bruce introduced me to his Rumely induced draft/thermosiphon radiator cooling system and BINGO, that's the perfect solution, at least for me.


Everybody have a great day
Pedro





« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 03:27:04 AM by Pedro_at_Sea »
LISTER CS 6/1 in my boat, LISTER CS 6/1 rebuild

I am a World-Citizen, I do not belong to any place or region. I claim the right to live and travel on any place on this globe.
                                                    utrinque paratus   ...     ubi panis ibi patria

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2014, 04:07:51 AM »
I don't know how may BTUs per foot of 1" copper tubing will dissipate but that turns one towards some sort of reservoir system for cooling the engine while providing some hot water for personal use.  Keeping It Simply Smart is what I really like about this quasi-venturi method of drawing air through a radiator (cooling system). 

Did I mention earlier that you may put me on your project fan list.

Casey

I missed what program your using for your illustrations?
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2014, 06:44:06 AM »
You should have a muffler and intake silencer on a boat, so you can hear the fish finder pings, the background music, and the marine radio.  no loud thumpa thumpa.

Pedro_at_Sea

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • HPV-NOMAD
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2014, 07:04:07 AM »
Casey,
Agree, "KISS" and use the approved Rambley radiator method.

Fan List ???
You can follow me on my web site http://petermican.com   ;)
Web site has to be updated, which I will do in the next days ...

I use Prolines 7 Pro  from Vacanti Software to design my hull and then go with that data's into AutoCAD.





Mike,
Have to test that first, for an intake silencer I agree, but a bit of thumpa thumpa is a symphony for me  ;)
Marin radios are an annoyance to me  ...


Have a great day
Pedro
LISTER CS 6/1 in my boat, LISTER CS 6/1 rebuild

I am a World-Citizen, I do not belong to any place or region. I claim the right to live and travel on any place on this globe.
                                                    utrinque paratus   ...     ubi panis ibi patria

millman56

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2014, 07:53:02 AM »
Hi Pedro,
I`ve followed your project with much interest, good to see someone thinking outside the box.   Have you thought about how the engine will be mounted in order to minimise hull reasonance?   I know that when these engines are used on dry land you either need a lot of dense mass or resiliant mounts to minimise the thumping transmitted through the ground, it may be a problem on a wooden hulled boat.        I`ve never seen a CS running in a boat although there are ones in existence,  20 miles from me a guy has a 12-2 fitted in a narrowboat it has,  I believe, a swashplate pump and piston motor for its drive arrangements,  I`ve been trying through a friend, to arrange to see it but no luck yet.
 
Keep up the good work,
Mark
 

Pedro_at_Sea

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • HPV-NOMAD
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2014, 08:37:35 AM »
Hi Mark,

I am cracking my head about your concern  ???

I will mount the engine on a steel frame, pure 1/2 ton of concrete into the bilge and let the engine sit in this bed.
The concrete should give enough mass to hold on for the engine and serves as ballast st the same time.

Hope that works.

Thought also of a hydraulic system, but this is very costly and has to great losses for this small HP engine.

Would be great to hear from first hand experiences in a boat ...
Please try again  ;)

Thanks and have a great day
Pedro
LISTER CS 6/1 in my boat, LISTER CS 6/1 rebuild

I am a World-Citizen, I do not belong to any place or region. I claim the right to live and travel on any place on this globe.
                                                    utrinque paratus   ...     ubi panis ibi patria

Pedro_at_Sea

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
    • HPV-NOMAD
Re: My CS 6/1 "baby's"
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2014, 08:51:04 AM »
I hope this will not go against forum rules when posting about boats and not engines, if so, please let me know and I apologize, will not do that again.

Have a second design in my mind and cannot decide for what to go  ???

This "Porsche" version would be 40' long and looks very sexy I guess  ;)
Peoples would expect a 500 HP engine in this baby, but to their surprise a slow running Lister will thumping off ...

Would be easily build in Marine Plywood and has only 1' draft and a flat bottom for easily drying out on low tide.

Does this 'baby" fit to the jewel of a"LISTER" ???


Check this out here and let me know of what you think ???









Thanks  in advance for your comments
Pedro
LISTER CS 6/1 in my boat, LISTER CS 6/1 rebuild

I am a World-Citizen, I do not belong to any place or region. I claim the right to live and travel on any place on this globe.
                                                    utrinque paratus   ...     ubi panis ibi patria