Using a CS 6/1 in a boat

[Pedro_at_Sea]

Hello everybody,

At first I like to introduce myself here and since two days I am a proud owner of two LISTER CS 6/1 baby's.
One is born in 1956 and the older one in 1938, lucky me :-)

One of this baby's, the younger one, is already rebuild from a real Lister master and in pristine condition, the other one will be my guinea pig to learn everything about this great engines.

At the moment I am stripping the older one apart and try to get her running again.

I will use the younger engine in my boat, which I am designing at the moment and will start building shortly.

Boat will be 33' long, 6' wide, draft 2'4", weights 3 tons and will be used for extended Pacific Cruising.

This was the whole idea to get involved with Lister's, in my mind the most reliable engines on the planet.

Power to the propeller will be transferred via a belt drive, which will drive a shaft to a gearbox, from the gear box will be a second shaft which will drive the propeller.
Should work out fine.

I have a problem with the right dimensions for the propeller, my software tells me that I should use a 18" x 16" propeller.
But the engine produces only 6 HP and I guess that this prop would be too BIG.
I know that the CS 6/1 has an enormous torque (comparable to a modern 30 HP YANMAR marine engine) and maybe this size would be OK, who knows

The second problem I cannot solve at the moment is a proper cooling system.
I guess that I have two options: Radiator or Keel Cooling

I like to keep everything as simple as possible and therefore like to avoid pumps or fans, they always give troubles sooner or later.

A cast iron radiator (from central heating system) would be a simple solution, can anybody give me an idea of how big this radiator should be to be used in tropical climates ?
Have seen a few pictures in this forum and they where very different, one very small one and one quite big, so what would be right?

Maybe a big tractor radiator would do a good job too, how big this one has to be to cool my baby without a fan ?


Keel Cooling would be an option too, but no one can tell me the right size.


If anyone has experiences with a CS 6/1 in a boat, suggestions about propeller size and cooling system would be really appreciated :-)

Will put some pictures from my rebuilding story on my web site shortly.

Thanks for every comment in advance and it is a pleasure to be a member of this great forum.

Everybody has a good day

[Pedro_at_Sea]

Hi glort,
I agree with you, strong currents are not fun at all, this baby is designed to cruise the Pacific Ocean in tropical areas, where currents are very moderate.
The main idea behind this boat is to make it very economical to run, I have a cruising speed of about 5 knots and a range of about 5000 Nm with 1000 liter diesel, this is absolutely amazing.
What sailing boats doing in strong currents ?
I will do the same, wait that the tide change :-)

[FletchCS]

HI,
I saw these videos on Youtube a bit back. You may have already seen them, but the set-up looks similar to what you're trying to achieve.
Hope they help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY3UWudYxJo
 (If the boat was sat back in the water like this, I would assume a modification to the oil pump suction pipe would need to be made to ensure the pipe is always under the oil level)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNiN9zDjpjw

[Pedro_at_Sea]

Hi FletchCS,
thanks for the video links, the first one I have seen already.
The second video looks really great, cannot wait to be on the water too 

[xyzer]

There are some knowledgeable people on here that dabble in the floating types of diesel propulsion. Maybe they will chime in. Basically there are 2 numbers that define the propeller.  Diameter and pitch. The pitch is matched to the "Hull Speed" and the operating rpm of the shaft. It is sometimes called a screw for a good reason. It screws its way through the water. A displacement hull has a efficient maximum speed then it hits a wall and power used to go faster is wasted. The diameter size will give it bite in the water.  Pitch is probably the most important calculation.
My sailboat had a 12hp yanmar and pushed the boat to 6+knots with some spare to buck headwinds or current. It weighed 14,000lbs but not much windage.....good luck!

http://www.marksmarineinc.com/parts/prop_calc.aspx

[Pedro_at_Sea]

Hi xyzer,
thanks for your input.

Would be great if the floating guy's are joining in 

My software program told me that a prop of 18"x18" would be the best fit.

I am not sure if the CS 6/1 can handle this big wheel at 650 rpm

My last boat had a 30 HP engine and could not get up to full revs with a 20"x16" prop.
Must say this boat had a displacement of  25 tons.

Now I am dealing with 3 tons.

I could rev up the prop via pulleys to get him smaller, but I am not sure what the 6/1 can handle.
Pulleys also wasting power, so I try to keep at a ratio of 1:2 and use a 2:1 gearbox, gives me 650 rpm on the prop.

The bigger the prop, the better, but the engine has to handle him 
How big, that's the millennium question 

Have a great day
Pedro

[richardhula]

Hello everybody,

At first I like to introduce myself here and since two days I am a proud owner of two LISTER CS 6/1 baby's.
One is born in 1956 and the older one in 1938, lucky me :-)

One of this baby's, the younger one, is already rebuild from a real Lister master and in pristine condition, the other one will be my guinea pig to learn everything about this great engines.

At the moment I am stripping the older one apart and try to get her running again.

I will use the younger engine in my boat, which I am designing at the moment and will start building shortly.

Boat will be 33' long, 6' wide, draft 2'4", weights 3 tons and will be used for extended Pacific Cruising.

This was the whole idea to get involved with Lister's, in my mind the most reliable engines on the planet.

Power to the propeller will be transferred via a belt drive, which will drive a shaft to a gearbox, from the gear box will be a second shaft which will drive the propeller.
Should work out fine.

I have a problem with the right dimensions for the propeller, my software tells me that I should use a 18" x 16" propeller.
But the engine produces only 6 HP and I guess that this prop would be too BIG.
I know that the CS 6/1 has an enormous torque (comparable to a modern 30 HP YANMAR marine engine) and maybe this size would be OK, who knows

The second problem I cannot solve at the moment is a proper cooling system.
I guess that I have two options: Radiator or Keel Cooling

I like to keep everything as simple as possible and therefore like to avoid pumps or fans, they always give troubles sooner or later.

A cast iron radiator (from central heating system) would be a simple solution, can anybody give me an idea of how big this radiator should be to be used in tropical climates ?
Have seen a few pictures in this forum and they where very different, one very small one and one quite big, so what would be right?

Maybe a big tractor radiator would do a good job too, how big this one has to be to cool my baby without a fan ?


Keel Cooling would be an option too, but no one can tell me the right size.


If anyone has experiences with a CS 6/1 in a boat, suggestions about propeller size and cooling system would be really appreciated :-)

Will put some pictures from my rebuilding story on my web site shortly.

Thanks for every comment in advance and it is a pleasure to be a member of this great forum.

Everybody has a good day

Hi Pedro - a rough guide to skin tank size is one square foot of cooling surface area per 4 bhp. Lets face it your boat will be surrounded by a good conductor of heat namely water so why not use it.

Prop size will be dependant on the gearing. Given the low revs of a CS, direct drive is certainly a possibility. Software calculations seem to always give a larger prop than an all round ideal because they only consider outright efficiency and not stopping power, acceleration etc.

Suggest you make the drive train as simple as possible otherwise you may be detracting from that legendary Lister reliability.

BTW Lister suggest strongly that their engines are mounted on wooden bearers, initially at least. My narrowboat built for the UK canal system uses iroko bearers directly supporting the JP2M and bolted through onto the steel subframe. Concrete sounds like a very bad idea.

Consider also position of engine mounts. Most marine versions have them higher up the crankcase than their industrial counterparts.

See below an example of a CS twin (16/2) in a narrowboat. Note that as the industrial mounts have been retained an ugly IMO, steady bar is required to check upper engine movement.



 

[Pedro_at_Sea]

Hi Richard,
thanks for your suggestions.
I agree with you, software always gives BIG propellers which the engine cannot handle in real life.
So I will settle at about 14"x13" I guess.
Good idea to raise the engine mounts like in real marine engines an use massive wooden bearers.
Have to weld something together here.
Will get the engine lower down in the bilge too.

Direct drive would be the most simple solution, but without a revers it would be quite a challenge to use the boat in tight quarters.
So I will use a belt drive 1:2 to the gearbox and a PRM 2:1 marine gear box to get 650 rpm on the prop.
 
Have a good day
Peter

[mike90045]

Direct drive

   Bad idea, because if something breaks, it will be the most expensive or hard to find part.

belts to gear box sounds better.  Belts will also have a bit of shock take-up / elastically that gears don't have.

[BruceM]

Given the need for reverse and a stock transmission to shift with,  Pedro's belt plan seems the simplest.  I'll bet somewhere someone's figured out how to do direct drive with a reverse. 

Direct drive is not a problem for driveline/prop shocks, I think, as there's this thing called a shear pin... 

[Pedro_at_Sea]

For direct drive a "Kitchen Rudder" could solve the reverse problem, but I think this arrangement is not very study and I would not trust it.

See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_rudder

and here https://www.google.com.my/search?q=kitchen+rudder&client=firefox-a&hs=qli&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=5tW9U9TYIMjd8AXw9YHIDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=960

[richardhula]

Direct drive

   Bad idea, because if something breaks, it will be the most expensive or hard to find part.

belts to gear box sounds better.  Belts will also have a bit of shock take-up / elastically that gears don't have.

So do propellers 

In all fairness I was referring to not having a reduction gearbox just a reversing one. Many low revving marine engines offered just such unless they were direct reversing two strokes.

[Pedro_at_Sea]

Richard,
An just reversing gearbox would be great, so far I could not find any.
So I have to use Pulleys to speed up a standard 2:1 gearbox 
What prop size would you suggest for my 6/1 baby ?
Have a great day
Pedro

[BruceM]

I agree, Pedro, the Kitchen rudder would provide a reverse but seems too likely to get fouled or damaged.

Hopefully Richard can help you find a 1:1 reversing gearbox.

[Pedro_at_Sea]

Yeah, a 1:1 gearbox would be the optimum