Author Topic: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids  (Read 12668 times)

veggie

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NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« on: June 26, 2014, 09:02:40 PM »
Hi All,

I fabricated a fitting for the inlet of my Listeroid to allow Gas dosing.
I know there are a few other members on the forum who have already
done this and I would like to know if my Gas nozzle is acceptable.
The nozzle is a stainless steel tube crimped at one end with 4 small holes drilled
in the middle of the air path. Upstream of this, the system has a needle valve to control flow and a regulator to manage pressure.
The needle valve can be adjusted to throttle the flow through this nozzle.
Has anyone used simple holes for this service compared to the angled nozzles used in automotive nitrous injection.
Will it work ?

cheers,
Veggie










- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

carlb23

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 09:12:21 PM »
That should work fine.  I just used a 1/8" pipe nipple with a slash cut threaded into my inlet elbow and it works fine.  I too use a simple needle valve to regulate the amount of nat gas injected into the engine.  I have mine set for an average 1500 to 2000 watts.   I marked the rack with a small scribed line with the engine at no load @60hz, I then put a 1500 to 2kw load on the engine and adjusted the needle valve to close the rack back to the idle position.  When the load drops the engine will start to miss as the governor tries to close the rack too far but it isn't a problem. When the load increases over 1500 to 2k the rack just pulls open to add more diesel.  i chose 1500 to 2k because that is what my average load is.  Using this method with loads of 2k or less the rack is open just enough to keep the engine running the rest of the fuel is natural gas.

youtube link below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwPPui8Fyi0

Carl

veggie

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 09:37:11 PM »

Thanks Carl,

My thinking is that Gas dosing while running Waste Veggie Oil should result in little or no deposits.
So this system is being used to allow clean running of WVO.

veggie
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

Tom

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 10:48:30 PM »
That's way to fancy! I just stuff a piece of hose in the edge of the air filter when I want to use propane. But I haven't used propane on a full production run.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

sailawayrb

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 05:20:29 AM »
Similar setup to Carl and can burn either natural gas or propane as indicated.  Primary fuel is SVO and mostly burn a low level of propane to eliminate carbon buildup and any associated maintenance.  Use a vacuum switch to close solenoid and stop flow as safety precaution should the engine shutdown.  Will be 10 years of operation this September.

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buickanddeere

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2014, 07:25:48 PM »
LP and NG in a pilot ignition diesel are two different situations.
NG with it's RON octane of 120 doesn't suffer detonation even a turbo diesel. LP on the other hand with a MON of only 97 will knock in a diesel once the mixture is richened above the lover explosive limit. So thus a LP assisted diesel can only use LP to make 20-30% of it's power.
   Power generation,irrigation pump and operators or other such applications. Many have reduced operating costs by operating the injection pump rack setting at slow idle delivery. Then adding NG to the intake air to make near rated power levels. No need to add spark plugs etc. Engine can also run on 100% diesel as a backup. Much lower stack emissions of HC, soot and CO however  NOX levels are not reduced.
   An octane chart curtosey of wikipedia. No wonder why the pulling tractor's knock goes away when a dose of 100LL is mixed with the 91 octane pump gas.

   The RON/MON values of n-heptane and iso-octane are exactly 0 and 100, respectively, by the definition of octane rating. The following table lists octane ratings for various other fuels.[8][9]
Fuel    RON    MON    AKI
methane    120    120    120
xylene    118    115    116.5
toluene    121    107    114
2,2,3-trimethylbutane    112.1[18]    101.3[18]    106
"isooctane" (RON and MON 100 by definition)    100    100    100
2,2,3-trimethylpentane    109.6[18]    99.9[18]    105
ExxonMobil Avgas 100[14]       99.5 (min)    
2,3,3-trimethylpentane    106.1[18]    99.4[18]    103
isopropanol    118    98    108
i-butane    102[16]    97.6    
propane    112    97    
2,3-dimethylbutane       94.4    
2,2-dimethylbutane       93.4    
"BP Ultimate 102 - now discontinued"[17]    102    93–94    97–98
t-butanol    103    91    97
Isopentane (methylbutane)       90.3    
n-butane    94[11]    90.1    
ethanol    108.6[21]    89.7[21]    99.15
Shell "V-Power 98", Caltex "Platinum 98 with Techron", Esso Mobil "Synergy 8000" and SPC "LEVO 98" in Singapore    98    89–90    93–94
BP Ultimate 98/Mobil Synergy 8000 in New Zealand    98    89-90    93-94
Great Britain, Slovenia and Spain, "SP98" in France    98    89–90    93–94
methanol    108.7[21]    88.6[21]    98.65
2,5-Dimethylfuran    101.3[22]    88.1[22]    94.7[22]
"SuperPlus" in Germany    98    88    
Shell V-Power in Italy and Germany    100    88    
Petro-Canada "Ultra 94" in Canada [13]    101.5    88    94
Aral SuperPlus 98 in Germany    98    88    
Aral Ultimate 102 in Germany    102    88    
"Premium" or "Super unleaded" gasoline in US (10% ethanol blend)    97    87-88    92-93
Tesco "Momentum^99"[12] in UK    99    87    
Eni(or Agip) Blu Super +(or Tech) in Italy    100    87    94
Pertamina "Pertamax Plus" gasoline in Indonesia    95    85    90
Super/Premium in New Zealand, Australia    95    85    90
"EuroSuper" or "EuroPremium" or "Regular unleaded" in Europe, "SP95" in France    95    85–86    90–91
Aral Super 95 in Germany    95    85    
Aral Super 95 E10 (10% Ethanol) in Germany    95    85    
E85 gasoline    102-105    85-87    94-96[19]
"regular" gasoline in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US    91–92    82–83    87
Pertamina "Pertamax" gasoline in Indonesia    92    82    87
Neopentane (dimethylpropane)       80.2    
Pertamina "Premium" gasoline in Indonesia    88    78    83
n-butanol    92    71    83
requirement for a typical two-stroke outboard motor[10]    69    65    67
n-pentane    62    61.9    
3-methylhexane       55.0    
2-methylhexane    44    46.4    
n-hexane    25    26.0    26
2-methylheptane    23    23.8    
hexadecane    < −30       
n-octane    −20       
n-heptane (RON and MON 0 by definition)    0    0    0
diesel fuel    15–25       
1-pentene    34       
1-heptene    60       
"Regular" gasoline in Japan (Japanese Industrial Standards)    90       
Shell "Super" in Indonesia    92       
Total "Performance 92" in Indonesia    92       
Shell "V-Power" in Indonesia    95       
Total "Performance 95" in Indonesia    95       
Shell "FuelSave " in Malaysia    95       
Shell "V-Power 97" in Malaysia    97       
"Premium" gasoline in Japan (Japanese Industrial Standards)    100       
Pertamina "Pertamax Racing" in Indonesia    100       
IP Plus 100 in Italy    100       
Tamoil WR 100 in Italy    100       
San Marco Petroli F-101 in Italy(northern Italy only, just a few gas stations)    101       
IES 98 Plus in Italy    98       
Shell "V-Power Racing" in Australia - discontinued July 2008 [15]    100       
benzene    101       
ethane    108       
1-propanol    118[20]       108[20]
hydrogen    > 130       
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 07:35:20 PM by buickanddeere »

sailawayrb

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2014, 02:16:09 AM »
Precisely.  The real advantage to burning propane (besides the better fumigation properties than natural gas) is the significantly increased combustion of the primary fuel.  My 6/1 generates about 3800 watts maximum running only SVO.  It generates about 4400 watts maximum running SVO and propane and runs noticeably smoother when doing so too.  There is an approximately 1/1 relationship between the percentage of propane burned to the percentage of increased SVO combustion mechanical BTUs…up to the limit that you can burn propane in a 6/1.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 02:19:16 AM by sailawayrb »

cujet

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2014, 12:42:52 PM »
Is there an easy way to modulate the NG or Propane delivery?

I've known for years that it can work very well. However, it would be nice to be able to have the system work as a throttle.
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dieselgman

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2014, 01:54:34 PM »
Impco makes a fine range of small N.G. & Propane carbs. We use the 110's on our HR2 models. These have mechanical governor controlled throttle plates that operate a vacuum modulated fuel valve. These provide a variable fuel rate based on governor demand and these shut down fuel flow completely when engine is stopped for any reason. These would be an easy scavenge from many of the small forklifts in common use.

Of course, this type of system would have to be modified somewhat to work on a diesel or oil fired plant...

dieselgman
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sailawayrb

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2014, 02:28:51 AM »
I think most of us 6/1 natural gas and propane users just rely on the existing mechanical governor to maintain a constant engine RPM.  As long as there is an adequate percentage of diesel or SVO still being throttled by the mechanical governor, and as long as the natural gas or propane flow rate is kept constant (typically using a gas regulator), the mechanical governor will handle typical load variances and maintain a constant RPM quite well.  Since you can't run a high percentage of propane anyhow, this is good approach for propane.  If you wanted to push the near 100% boundary with natural gas, I could see how using a small constant flow of diesel or SVO and throttling the natural gas might have some advantages.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 02:33:02 AM by sailawayrb »

BruceM

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2014, 04:40:21 AM »
Thanks buickanddeere for the fuel data.  I'm disappointed that  higher levels of Propane  aren't feasible, that sort of blows the project for me.   In a very sloppy test, I added propane to my 6/1 intake  while loaded with my air compressor and was able to close the rack by about 75% before knocking occurred.  I had hoped that this was roughly accurate, but apparently not.  :-[

I could have sworn I read somewhere that up to 85% was feasible for LP and diesel.   


sailawayrb

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 12:25:45 AM »
15% propane is about as high as I can reliably operate my 6/1.  Somewhere near 20% is where I have encountered knocking with propane.  This likely varies somewhat depending on the actual valve timing.  I have run 85% natural gas without any issues other than there is still carbon buildup.  So I prefer propane dosing (AKA propane fumigation) which I thought was the subject of this thread.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 12:29:08 AM by sailawayrb »

buickanddeere

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2014, 05:55:45 AM »
  If an otherwise stock and proper sized LP carb with the throttle plates removed is used. The LP flow will be varied with how far the throttle is operated via a governor.

dieselgman

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2014, 11:57:02 AM »
It is my understanding that the Impco carbs control fuel flow completely by vacuum operating the dashpot. I am sure you could modify one to operate mechanically as described in response to the governor. The throttle plate in the stock configuration is the only connection to governor, and it in turn controls the amount of vacuum realized in the rest of the carburetor including the gas control valve.

dieselgman
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dieselgman

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Re: NG / Propane dosing on Listeroids
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 01:37:28 PM »
I do not have any first-hand comparisons with diesel and LPG dosing but I have been inside quite a few LPG run engines. Invariably they have been very clean inside even after very high operating hours. This has been apparent both in terms of combustion chambers and crankcase deposits as well. I was taught that this is largely due to the high water content that is released when burning the LPG, and also very much lower amounts of particulates remaining in the exhaust.

We have long used a water mist in the inlet ports to clean stubborn or dirty Lister diesels... the only real danger and down side would be the case of allowing too much to get past the rings and contaminating the lube oil. I have seen this happen and it must be watched carefully because water will quickly wreck oil pumps and bearings etc..

dieselgman
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