Thermostat in a 10/1 Listeroid Powerline

[Listerational]

you need an air tool grinder for this.   I'd tried stones & carbide burrs on a cordless drill, and took hours to get nowhere.  When I got the air tool, the burr, at high RPM's, was like a hot knife in butter. (maybe frozen butter)  but the right tools make all the difference.   And I used a stack of several thermostat gaskets glued together to get the final spacing I needed.

I like the stacking gaskets idea.

I can see that high speed air grinder cutting away.

[Listerational]

1. Remove the radiator cap and cut off the little metal check valve flapper plate in the middle of the radiator cap(round ring that points down into the radiator when installed.  This will allow fluid to flow easilly in and out of the overflow hose barb on the radiator filler neck.  Connect a hose up to the bottom of the overflow tank like in my drawing.
2. Drill a hole in the highest point in the top of the top tank and solder in a brass hosebarb.  Plug on a hose and run it up to a small bottom fed overflow tank like in my drawing.
Mounted like this, water in the tank means the radiator is full...  

Hello ronmar,

Post #1

Your help has been a huge relief for me and I thank you and everyone on this forum for the good advice.

I have the radiator raised sufficiently for good syphon. I have the overflow tank raised above the radiator with a hose connected to a hose barb in the top of the radiator. Here is a link to 4 - radiator photos. <iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/Aristotle-Rand/embed/slideshow/"></iframe> Will you please sir explain to me
1. why I need to remove the check valve flapper plate in the radiator cap and give me a visual description of it?
2. Why do I need fluid to flow easily in and out of the overflow hose barb on the radiator filler neck. The hose barb that I am using for my overflow tank is not associated with the filler neck.
3. Does my cooling system need to be a pressurized or a non-pressurized system?

Post #2

 Okay, I just ran the generator for 30 minutes under a 5,000 watt load (2/3s of its rated 7,500 watts). The temperature at the fluid outlet flange of the engine went up into the 220s and a signifigant amount of water was bubbling out so I shut her down slowly removing the load.
 It took a few minutes for the temp to get that high plus I was using straight water not 50-50 (because I was testing out a newly soldered fitting.
 Also, I had the lid to the overflow tank open because I wasn't sure whether or not the system needed to be pressurized (as if a plastic bottle would pressurize it).
 Last but not least I was using a hand held infrared thermometer which may be off by a few degrees.
 The good news is that I believe that syphoning is taking effect. I am just wondering why I lost fluid.

Post #3

 Interesting phenomenon has occured. The temperature has cooled down enough to allow the fluid in the overflow tank to flow back into the radiator but it will not. I added water to the overflow tank but it is not entering the radiator. The radiator must be full and therefore not losing water. Funny, I saw a decent amount of water and steam coming out of the overflow tank.

Thanks,
Jim

Best Regards,
Jim

[ronmar]

I see what you are talking about.  Since you have a soldered in hosebarb to the expansion tank, you do NOT need to do anything to the radiator cap.  FYI, the cap check valve is shown well in that pic you took of the  radiator cap.  It is that copper colored disc right in the middle of the cap.  That allows fluid to flow back into the radiator when it cools and pulls a vacume,  but seals to pressure when the cooling system heats and expands.

You want the system NON pressurized, so the hose barb on the top of the radiator up into the expansion tank is perfect IMO.

So you raised the radiator from the last pics you posted? The last pics I saw from the side, the hoses didn't look good for thermosiphon. The description of 220F and the bubbles and steam leads me to believe your engine has reverted to evaporative cooling.  When it goes evaporative, the water boils and roars up the hose carrying away a bunch of heat.  Bubbles of steam go up, cooler water falls back in to replace it and the cycle repeats untill there is no coolant left ...

With no thermostat installed, you should never see 220F at the hot water outlet if:
A. You  are getting adequate thermosiphon flow.
And
B. You are moving enough air thru the radiator to dissipate the heat generated by the engine.  Remember that the heat removal and the resultant density change in the radiator is as important to powering the thermosiphon process as the heat application and density change in the engine when the heat is applied...

That looks like an older radiator.  Are you sure all the coolant passages are clear?

[Listerational]

I see what you are talking about.  Since you have a soldered in hosebarb to the expansion tank, you do NOT need to do anything to the radiator cap.  FYI, the cap check valve is shown well in that pic you took of the  radiator cap.  It is that copper colored disc right in the middle of the cap.  That allows fluid to flow back into the radiator when it cools and pulls a vacume,  but seals to pressure when the cooling system heats and expands.

You want the system NON pressurized, so the hose barb on the top of the radiator up into the expansion tank is perfect IMO.

So you raised the radiator from the last pics you posted? The last pics I saw from the side, the hoses didn't look good for thermosiphon. The description of 220F and the bubbles and steam leads me to believe your engine has reverted to evaporative cooling.  When it goes evaporative, the water boils and roars up the hose carrying away a bunch of heat.  Bubbles of steam go up, cooler water falls back in to replace it and the cycle repeats untill there is no coolant left ...

With no thermostat installed, you should never see 220F at the hot water outlet if:
A. You  are getting adequate thermosiphon flow.
And
B. You are moving enough air thru the radiator to dissipate the heat generated by the engine.  Remember that the heat removal and the resultant density change in the radiator is as important to powering the thermosiphon process as the heat application and density change in the engine when the heat is applied...

That looks like an older radiator.  Are you sure all the coolant passages are clear?

Hello ronmar,
Yes I did raise the radiator so the hoses are traveling upwards nicely.
I did not use a fan to cool the radiator coils. But I will install a temporary one today.
I will also mix in some antifreeze.
Thanks for the friendly advice.
Having a lot of fun with this thanks to all the help from this forum.
Jim

[overbore]

LOAD:

Jim, as a polite reminder, the rule of thumb is 2 hp/Kw for gasoline and 1.5 for diesels which is why I only have a 5 Kw pmg on my 10/1. Do not plan on anything like 6,200 watts. Cordially,
overbore

[Listerational]

LOAD:

Jim, as a polite reminder, the rule of thumb is 2 hp/Kw for gasoline and 1.5 for diesels which is why I only have a 5 Kw pmg on my 10/1. Do not plan on anything like 6,200 watts. Cordially,
overbore
[/quote]

First Post:

Thanks for the heads up overbore. I've got a 7.5kw ST head on my 10/1 that I will not exceed 5kw on. Do you recommend that I break the generator in at 5kw or about 3kw? I guess the silver lining about the generator is the fact that if it needs to start a motor load it has the umph. A motor load example that I am thinking of is an air conditioner condensing unit. or a water pump that is under load.

Second Post:

I have been running generator for about 1.5 hours now and since I replaced about half of the water with antifreeze the temperature is below 200 at about the mid 190s. I also have two portable fans blowing on the radiator. I ran about 45 minutes on 5kw load and 45 minutes on 3kw load. My total engine break-in running time has been about 3 hours under either 5kw or 3kw load. Once again thanks for the great advice. I could have burnt up the engine easily otherwise.

I am ready to install an exhaust fan in order to pull the harmful fumes out of my garage. I am also ready to start buying supplies for an automatic shutdown system that this forum has advised me on in a recent post.
I have a couple of questions that I was hoping someone could please help me with.
1. Can someone please recommend to me a thermoswitch that will close a set of dry contacts when the fluid gets too hot?
2. Do I need a similar switch for my engine oil? If so can you make a recommendation?
3. I found a smoke detector that has a set of dry contacts.
4. Do I need a cutoff switch for my fuel level?
If you can think of anything else that needs to be monitored I would appreciate your help.

Thanks,
Jim

Enjoying this setup process thanks to your help.

Jim

[buickanddeere]

Thanks,
Jim

Enjoying this setup process thanks to your help.

Jim

Jim

You are scaring me. There is no way to keep from being CO poisoned with an open exhaust engine running in a garage even with a 10x12 vehicle door wide open AND a fan blowing.
 Is your will up to date and easily located ?

B&D

[ronmar]

Overbore, I think you may have your rule of thumb numbers mixed up.  2HP/KW of electric load is pretty common for diesels.  My most ready example are the 15KW Onan generator sets I work with.  They have a 30HP Kubota diesel engine...  MY 6/1 comfortably will pull 3KW all day long.  It will go higher but you can tell it is working at it and the RPM/frequency droop starts to get noticible...

Jim
  What B&D said!  Best way to deal with exhaust fumes is to plumb/route the exhaust outside.  Then you only have to deal with crancase vent vapors, and they can fairly easilly be routed outside or back into the intake...

It sounds like you are now removing enough heat with temps near 200F and I am assuming no bubbles?

Temperature is fairly easy to monitor.  You can get 210-220F thermal snap switches that you could bond to the side of the head or outlet pipe.  they are fairly inexpensive so you can put 2 in series for redundancy if either opens it will shutdown the engine. Grainger has a good selection http://www.grainger.com/search/hvac-and-refrigeration/ecatalog/N-k00/Ntt-Snap+Switch%7CSnap+Switch?refineSearchString=200F+snap+switch&searchString=HVAC%2Band%2BRefrigeration&GlobalSearch=true&sst=All&QuickSearchController=GO

These engines do not have any real oil pressure to speak of, so monitoring oil will be a real brain teaser.  They do have oil flow however.  I had thought about routing a small capillary line to the head to supply a steady flow/drip of oil to the rockers.  This could probably run thru a cup on the end of a teeter-totter mechanism with a magnet and microswitch. A small outlet hole on the cup would allow the oil to drain out a little slower than it comes into the cup.  If the oil stopped entering the cup it would ultimately empty allowing the teeter mechanism and magnet to close or open a circuit when it teeters...

Oil temp is a problem on these engines:)  Getting it warm enough that is...  Not much to monitor there...
 

[Listerational]

Overbore, I think you may have your rule of thumb numbers mixed up.  2HP/KW of electric load is pretty common for diesels.  My most ready example are the 15KW Onan generator sets I work with.  They have a 30HP Kubota diesel engine...  MY 6/1 comfortably will pull 3KW all day long.  It will go higher but you can tell it is working at it and the RPM/frequency droop starts to get noticible...

Jim
  What B&D said!  Best way to deal with exhaust fumes is to plumb/route the exhaust outside.  Then you only have to deal with crancase vent vapors, and they can fairly easilly be routed outside or back into the intake...

It sounds like you are now removing enough heat with temps near 200F and I am assuming no bubbles?

Temperature is fairly easy to monitor.  You can get 210-220F thermal snap switches that you could bond to the side of the head or outlet pipe.  they are fairly inexpensive so you can put 2 in series for redundancy if either opens it will shutdown the engine. Grainger has a good selection http://www.grainger.com/search/hvac-and-refrigeration/ecatalog/N-k00/Ntt-Snap+Switch%7CSnap+Switch?refineSearchString=200F+snap+switch&searchString=HVAC%2Band%2BRefrigeration&GlobalSearch=true&sst=All&QuickSearchController=GO

These engines do not have any real oil pressure to speak of, so monitoring oil will be a real brain teaser.  They do have oil flow however.  I had thought about routing a small capillary line to the head to supply a steady flow/drip of oil to the rockers.  This could probably run thru a cup on the end of a teeter-totter mechanism with a magnet and microswitch. A small outlet hole on the cup would allow the oil to drain out a little slower than it comes into the cup.  If the oil stopped entering the cup it would ultimately empty allowing the teeter mechanism and magnet to close or open a circuit when it teeters...

Oil temp is a problem on these engines:)  Getting it warm enough that is...  Not much to monitor there...
 

Hello ronmar,

I do have the exhaust routed to the outside but it is comprised of a bunch of 2" rigid and 2" rigid fittings, each of which leaks a little bit of fumes combining to equal a sizable amount of fumes. I will call the auto parts store and see if they have a sealant.
I do not know if this is a problem but a decent amount of oil is leaking out of the 2" rigid fittings that are closest to the exhaust manifold. I believe someone in a previous thread thought that it was because engine was not broken in yet.
The crank case vent vapors have been explained to me in great depth in an earlier post so I will have to revisit that.
I like the idea of the snap switches.
I like your design of oiling the rockers. I hope you get to build it one day. Do you have any videos of your 6/1 running?
overbore I am interested in seeing your 10/1 running also if you do not mind. I bought my 10/1 from someone in Atlanta and I am wondering how similar they are.

Thanks to all,
I am thoroughly enjoying the progress.

[ronmar]

Do I have any videos of my 6/1 running?  Yes, but sadly none from the outside...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ccBrlz-qg5w

[millman56]

Thanks,
Jim

Enjoying this setup process thanks to your help.

Jim

      Not too sure about the CO poisoning risk from a diesels exhaust fumes, a gas engine is  certainly a dangerous thing to run in an enclosed area due to high CO content exhaust,  diesels as far as I understand produce very little CO.    Not a good idea to breathe the fumes though.
A story was going round at one time of someone who tried to kill himself with CO in his garage but was unsuccessful due to his car being a diesel.

Mark.

Jim

You are scaring me. There is no way to keep from being CO poisoned with an open exhaust engine running in a garage even with a 10x12 vehicle door wide open AND a fan blowing.
 Is your will up to date and easily located ?

B&D

[Listerational]

Thanks,
Jim

Enjoying this setup process thanks to your help.

Jim

      Not too sure about the CO poisoning risk from a diesels exhaust fumes, a gas engine is  certainly a dangerous thing to run in an enclosed area due to high CO content exhaust,  diesels as far as I understand produce very little CO.    Not a good idea to breathe the fumes though.
A story was going round at one time of someone who tried to kill himself with CO in his garage but was unsuccessful due to his car being a diesel.

Mark.

Jim

You are scaring me. There is no way to keep from being CO poisoned with an open exhaust engine running in a garage even with a 10x12 vehicle door wide open AND a fan blowing.
 Is your will up to date and easily located ?

B&D

I have a 2" rigid pipe and fittings leaving the exhaust manifold and going up through the roof. My concern is that the 2" rigid fittings are not sealing the fumes in and am seeking a thread sealant that will seal those fitting threads.

[ronmar]

High temp RTV should work just fine for diesel engine exhaust temps.  Is there a flexible section in there somewhere?  The engine will vibrate, and a long rigid pipe will act like a lever.  Archemedes said it best:  "Give me a fulcrum and a long enough lever and I will move the world"   In this case though all the steel lever is going to move(crack) is cast iron.  That I think you want to avoid.  Flexible exhaust sections are available at most auto parts stores and should be installed as close to the engine as practical to break the levers connection to the engine.

[Listerational]

High temp RTV should work just fine for diesel engine exhaust temps.  Is there a flexible section in there somewhere?  The engine will vibrate, and a long rigid pipe will act like a lever.  Archemedes said it best:  "Give me a fulcrum and a long enough lever and I will move the world"   In this case though all the steel lever is going to move(crack) is cast iron.  That I think you want to avoid.  Flexible exhaust sections are available at most auto parts stores and should be installed as close to the engine as practical to break the levers connection to the engine.

Ouch, that sounds painful. I wonder why flexible sections are not installed on automobiles. I will put that on my list, thanks.

I like your reference to Archemedes. I am a big fan of Aristotle. Unfortunately society in America and Western Europe is slipping away from his laws of reason and into another dark age.  

http://www.amazon.com/The-Return-Primitive-Anti-Industrial-Revolution/dp/0452011841

That is why I am setting up a fail safe generator.

Thanks

[ronmar]

Ouch, that sounds painful. I wonder why flexible sections are not installed on automobiles. I will put that on my list, thanks.

Two of mine have them(both turbocharged)...  The one that dosn't, the first exhaust mount is bolted to the transmission.  Also the first union usually has some flex designed into it...