Thermostat in a 10/1 Listeroid Powerline

[Hugh Conway]

Hi Jim:
This is a pic of our cooling tank rather than a radiator. The thing is that both hoses from engine to cooling device must go up. Also there must be sufficient coolant for  top  tank (rad) connections to be submerged.  I have used this method both for cooling my listeroid and also heating domestic hot water with our woodstove.
If you were to raise your radiator, the system will be much more efficient.

Cheers,
Hugh

[Listerational]

Hi Jim:
This is a pic of our cooling tank rather than a radiator. The thing is that both hoses from engine to cooling device must go up. Also there must be sufficient coolant for  top  tank (rad) connections to be submerged.  I have used this method both for cooling my listeroid and also heating domestic hot water with our woodstove.
If you were to raise your radiator, the system will be much more efficient.

Cheers,
Hugh

Wow Hugh, that tanks huge. Do you think my radiator will do the trick? Also, what do you mean by 'top tank (rad) connections to be submerged'? Last but not least, do you have a thermostat that will heat your coolant quickly before opening like an automobile type thermostat?
Thanks for the advice and picture.
Jim

[Hugh Conway]

Hello Jim;
That tank is 30 gallons, Lister specs a 50 gallon tank, though that must be for nearly continuous run time. I usually run 2 to 3 hours at about 2800W max tapering down as my batteries get charged.
The tank heat gets quite hot in the top 1/3, quite warm in the middle, while the bottom remains cool. That's during Spring//Fall/Winter. Summer, the tank gets hot throughout. What you see is actually part of an open shed, so the engine/tank are always exposed to outside air temps, though always in shade

Water level in the tank needs to be above the top hose at all times, or the thermosyphon will not work. I keep coolant level about a finger's depth below top of the tank to allow for expansion.

Yes, there is a 195 degree 'stat at the engine top water outlet, it is mounted in the galv. coupling before the hose connection. It is 1" hose BTW.

The big + for this kind of system is its utter simplicity. The biggest (only?) drawback is that it needs a lot of anti-freeze, much more so than if using a radiator.
I live in an out-of -the-way island, and had the tank, didn't have a suitable rad.

Cheers,
Hugh

[overbore]

Jim. my quick reaction is to ask
1. Do you have a 190F thermostat?
2. Do you plan on using a fan? Mechanical or electric?  Most vehicles today have thermostat or sensor actuated fan off-on switches.  I am using a three speed adjustable 110V fan.
3. My OPINION  is that a temperature gage or two will be a sound investment as you will know at a glance what is required in the way of more cooling air.
4. I suggest a coolant of 50-50 antifreeze.
5. Is that radiator a cross flow?

We are here to help since you have the gumption to tackle a 'Roid.
Best, overbore

[Listerational]

Jim. my quick reaction is to ask
1. Do you have a 190F thermostat?
2. Do you plan on using a fan? Mechanical or electric?  Most vehicles today have thermostat or sensor actuated fan off-on switches.  I am using a three speed adjustable 110V fan.
3. My OPINION  is that a temperature gage or two will be a sound investment as you will know at a glance what is required in the way of more cooling air.
4. I suggest a coolant of 50-50 antifreeze.
5. Is that radiator a cross flow?

We are here to help since you have the gumption to tackle a 'Roid.
Best, overbore

Hello overbore,

Thanks for the super advice and help. Here are the answers to your questions.

1. Do you have a 190F thermostat? A.: No sir.
2. Do you plan on using a fan? Mechanical or electric?  Most vehicles today have thermostat or sensor actuated fan off-on switches.  I am using a three speed adjustable 110V fan. A.: I am not sure if I need one or not. I believe my radiator capacity is only a couple of gallons (If I remember correctly) and Hugh has a 30-gallon capacity storage tank. I am thinking that I might need some sort of fan blowing on the radiator especially in the summer here in the south.
3. My OPINION  is that a temperature gage or two will be a sound investment as you will know at a glance what is required in the way of more cooling air. A.: I plan to install  - temperature gauges.
4. I suggest a coolant of 50-50 antifreeze.  A.: I use 50-50 antifreeze.
5. Is that radiator a cross flow? A.: No sir.

Best Regards,
Jim

[ronmar]

You and Overbore are correct about my drawing.  The red/orange/blue object on the right represents my domestic hot water tank(red represents hot, blue represents cold in the drawing).  I have a 195F thermostat on the outlet of the engine in the primary loop to keep the engine at a proper operating temp.  I have a 120F thermostat on the heat exchanger secondary.  The 120F output feeds into the top of the water tank.  The flow is low so the tank heats from the top down with the coolest water exiting the bottom of the tank.  The fancoil is to insure the water returning to the heatex is cool enough to remove the engine heat from the heatex .  This maintains a tank full of hot water and the fan/coil can either be inside the house to dump the excess heat there once the tank is full of 120F water, or the fan coil can be connected outside to dissipate the heat there if I didn't need it in the house.  My 6/1 and operational load generates about as much waste heat as my pellet stove(12K BTU/HR for a 2KW load).  It was the most elegant way I could come up with to keep hot water on the menu with only a 3KW backup generator:)   

Wow, that is some radiator in your pics:)  I would conservatively estimate that it is probably 5X what you need to cool a 10/1 at full load...  It will most certainly work...  For proper flow I would raise it up a few feet.  With a radiator that tall, both lines to the cooling mechanism do not have to run upward, but I would raise it at least high enough so the bottom return line is horizontal.  With a traditional radiator you MUST keep the top tank absolutely full.  Easiest way to do this is to:
1. Remove the radiator cap and cut off the little metal check valve flapper plate in the middle of the radiator cap(round ring that points down into the radiator when installed.  This will allow fluid to flow easilly in and out of the overflow hose barb on the radiator filler neck.  Connect a hose up to the bottom of the overflow tank like in my drawing.
2. Drill a hole in the highest point in the top of the top tank and solder in a brass hosebarb.  Plug on a hose and run it up to a small bottom fed overflow tank like in my drawing.
Mounted like this, water in the tank means the radiator is full...  The tank I use is from Napa Autoparts.  It is about 5" tall X 4" deep X 6" long with molded in mounting points and hose barbs on bottom and side.  You must drill out the center of the bottom hose barb to use it, and you are ready to go.  The Napa P/N is 730-4514.  It used to cost less than $10.  Below is a pic of the tank over my heatex with some extra pipes as I was experimenting at the time:). 

As for cooling with your radiator, a couple of 4" computer fans(cheap, reliable and easy to control) on a plate/shroud to draw air thru more of the surface area will probaly move more air than necessary to maintain temp on your 10/1...

[Listerational]

The domestic hot water tank heats up via the heat exchanger using the hot water coming off of the generator. The cold water coming out of the domestic hot water tank is used to sufficiently cool the cold water entering the generator via the heat exchanger. The heat exchanger is serving to heat water to the domestic water and also to cool the water to the generator. Nice heat exchanger. Nice way to get heat into your home and also provide for hot water.
May I ask if I could buy a thermostat for my 10/1 from one of the suppliers who frequent this forum?

Everyone's input on this subject matter has been a big help. I feel like I am on a basketball court with three pros who are teaching me how to play for the first time. I do not play basketball so a better analogy for my tastes would be.   I feel like I am learning philosophy from Aristotle, John Locke and Ayn Rand.

Thanks to all for guiding me through this process. I hope to be set up by Sunday afternoon.

Jim

PS. Nice video of the interior of an engine running.

[overbore]

Jim, Although I think you are now immersed in good data, I will share some heat exchanger data with you. If you have a choice in materials, go with 316 stainless as it better withstands corrosion than the cheaper 308 products. I am using a 62 plate version. More plates, more cooling.
Next, if you want a simplified "how do it work"  explanation, picture the exchanger ( and we are speaking of liquid to liquid type) standing upright on its fittings end, The Romar diagram shows it well. The hot antifreeze is only on the left side and the cooling (raw ) water is on the right. The raw water is where you plumb in, if so inclined, your hot water line(s).   I am planning, and have on hand, a hot water to house air exchanger for the plenum in my basement ( think of it as a radiator in reverse )as an additional source of warm air for the winter house heating.  A note about valves: if within your budget, use full flow ss ball valves for long trouble free uses. The use of T's and ball valves gives you the ability to go thermosyphon ( I use a55gal tank) as the normal system or by closing two valves you may add the radiator and or the pump for even more cooling-- as yes I do know how to spell HotLanta; been here since  '70.
Best wishes, overbore

[ronmar]

A Napa autoparts part number 253 thermostat(195F) fits pretty will under the outlet flange on a listeroid head. You will need to do a little work with a die grinder and rotary file inside the flange and the pipe nipple to get the head to fit.  The use of a real thick gasket with larger center hole to accomidate the thermostat flange will cut down on the ammount of grinding necessary. You may also have to do a little cleanup in the hole in the head to accomidate the bulb end of the thermostat there.  I think it took me maybe 1/2 hour with the grinder to fit mine and clean up the head outlet hole.  One place to use caution is in grinding in the hole in the head.  There is a passage for the head stud cast into the head located just inside that hole(on the right when looking into the hole).  You don't want to grind thru that.  Add a 1/8" bypass hole to the thermostat to allow it to slowly pass a little fluid so the warmed fluid gets to the thermostat easier. This will help the flow stabelize quickly with a minimum of surging.

That thermostat can be seen(well not really seen:)) in this pic of my head.  It is in/under the flange and has worked great for years now... Some have machined and sandwitched 2 flanges together to accomidate the flange.  there are a few ways to do it...

[Listerational]

Jim, Although I think you are now immersed in good data, I will share some heat exchanger data with you. If you have a choice in materials, go with 316 stainless as it better withstands corrosion than the cheaper 308 products. I am using a 62 plate version. More plates, more cooling.
Next, if you want a simplified "how do it work"  explanation, picture the exchanger ( and we are speaking of liquid to liquid type) standing upright on its fittings end, The Romar diagram shows it well. The hot antifreeze is only on the left side and the cooling (raw ) water is on the right. The raw water is where you plumb in, if so inclined, your hot water line(s).   I am planning, and have on hand, a hot water to house air exchanger for the plenum in my basement ( think of it as a radiator in reverse )as an additional source of warm air for the winter house heating.  A note about valves: if within your budget, use full flow ss ball valves for long trouble free uses. The use of T's and ball valves gives you the ability to go thermosyphon ( I use a55gal tank) as the normal system or by closing two valves you may add the radiator and or the pump for even more cooling-- as yes I do know how to spell HotLanta; been here since  '70.
Best wishes, overbore

overbore, It sounds interesting indeed. I think for now I will just use the radiator that I have. Maybe some day I will see a need for heating domestic hot water or heating my home but getting this Listeroid up and running seems to have suddenly become a priority in my life due to the unstableness of our global political outlook (Russia).
HotLanta is a fun place. Go braves!!!

[Listerational]

A Napa autoparts part number 253 thermostat(195F) fits pretty will under the outlet flange on a listeroid head. You will need to do a little work with a die grinder and rotary file inside the flange and the pipe nipple to get the head to fit.  The use of a real thick gasket with larger center hole to accomidate the thermostat flange will cut down on the ammount of grinding necessary. You may also have to do a little cleanup in the hole in the head to accomidate the bulb end of the thermostat there.  I think it took me maybe 1/2 hour with the grinder to fit mine and clean up the head outlet hole.  One place to use caution is in grinding in the hole in the head.  There is a passage for the head stud cast into the head located just inside that hole(on the right when looking into the hole).  You don't want to grind thru that.  Add a 1/8" bypass hole to the thermostat to allow it to slowly pass a little fluid so the warmed fluid gets to the thermostat easier. This will help the flow stabelize quickly with a minimum of surging.

That thermostat can be seen(well not really seen:)) in this pic of my head.  It is in/under the flange and has worked great for years now... Some have machined and sandwitched 2 flanges together to accomidate the flange.  there are a few ways to do it...



Thank you so much for the pics, advice and part number. I will call Napa this morning. I will probably grind and drill as little as possible and buy or make a double flange.

I will let you all know how things turn out and link pics.

Have a good weekend.

[mike90045]

you need an air tool grinder for this.   I'd tried stones & carbide burrs on a cordless drill, and took hours to get nowhere.  When I got the air tool, the burr, at high RPM's, was like a hot knife in butter. (maybe frozen butter)  but the right tools make all the difference.   And I used a stack of several thermostat gaskets glued together to get the final spacing I needed.

[Listerational]

Hello,

I noticed that the fluid outlet on the bottom of the radiator was pointing in the upwards position. I plan to correct that tomorrow.

Please see pic via link?

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/Aristotle-Rand/embed/slideshow/"></iframe>

Also upon draining the radiator and generator I measured only approximately 2 - gallons of fluid. The radiator dimensions are 21" X 41". I thought that it was full but I may have been wrong.

Here is a link to the radiator picture.

<a href="http://s1172.photobucket.com/user/Aristotle-Rand/media/IMG_7049_zps15af7c03.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r564/Aristotle-Rand/IMG_7049_zps15af7c03.jpeg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_7049_zps15af7c03.jpeg"/></a>

[ronmar]

Thermosiphon is powered by the difference in density between hot and cold coolant being acted upon by gravity. This difference and the ammount of energy involved is very small.   Because of this vertical runs are our friends as they help to move fluid.  Just like hot air in a chimney flows upward and causes a draft to feed the fire with fresh air.  Horizontal runs rob energy from the process(reason chimneys are vertical instead of horizontal:)) Hot side runs that go down when they should go up really kill the flow...  The upturn on the bottom of the radiator is bad, but the downturn in the upper hose is probably worse...  You should probably raise the radiator untill the upper line runs upward at at least a 45 degree angle(or more), and the lower run to at least horizontal(or more).  Moving the radiator closer would also help make the upper angle steeper(good) and would shorten the less favorable  horizontal run improving performance.

I know you already have this one, but a much smaller radiator would make it easier to setup for the best thermosiphon flow and still have sufficient cooling area.  A small geo or honda radiator is sufficient to cool one of these things...       

[Listerational]

Thermosiphon is powered by the difference in density between hot and cold coolant being acted upon by gravity. This difference and the ammount of energy involved is very small.   Because of this vertical runs are our friends as they help to move fluid.  Just like hot air in a chimney flows upward and causes a draft to feed the fire with fresh air.  Horizontal runs rob energy from the process(reason chimneys are vertical instead of horizontal:)) Hot side runs that go down when they should go up really kill the flow...  The upturn on the bottom of the radiator is bad, but the downturn in the upper hose is probably worse...  You should probably raise the radiator untill the upper line runs upward at at least a 45 degree angle(or more), and the lower run to at least horizontal(or more).  Moving the radiator closer would also help make the upper angle steeper(good) and would shorten the less favorable  horizontal run improving performance.

I know you already have this one, but a much smaller radiator would make it easier to setup for the best thermosiphon flow and still have sufficient cooling area.  A small geo or honda radiator is sufficient to cool one of these things...       

Great analogy sir. I can picture the flow in my mind. Can't wait to start setting up and giving it a run.
Interested in learning the temperature with my new infrared temperature gauge. I was hesitant to use infrared even though you all recommended it to me earlier. However the salesman at Advance Auto advised me that the surface reading is almost identical to the actual fluid temperature. I have always been hesitant to believe this because my surface thermometer for my woodstove reads about half of the actual temperature inside the wood stove.
How is your generator running? Did you say that you have a 6/1? If so is it a 650 rpm? I have read that it's great to just listen to run.
Thanks.