cold weather starting question

[2ringers6]

I have a new 6/1 which I put together this spring.  I never had any problems starting it.  I wanted to see if it would start in cold weather.  It's 10 deg F.  I can't crank it through the compression stroke.  Is this normal or did I get weak?

[BruceM]

It's normal for it to be harder to crank over at 10F. The extra drag of cold oil/bearings reduces your decompressed cranking speed, and then you have a hard time getting it through compression. 

Consider switching to a 5W-40 synthetic oil, that will help reduce cold cranking drag quite a bit.  It also helps to unbelt the generator to first get it started and warmed up a bit.  The cold grease in the generator bearings will also have a lot more drag. 

Think about a rubber roller friction starter.  They are a delight compared to hand cranking a cold soaked CS.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

[2ringers6]

I do have the belt off.  I will try the synthetic oil. I plan to get the friction starter as soon as I have the funds.  Plus this old body doesn't work as well in the cold as it used too.
Thanks
Chris

[ronmar]

Yep, warm up the bearing carriers and it will spin over considerably easier.  I also put a little alcohol up around the injector and light it.  This preheats the injector and the fuel and makes it a little easier to ignite when cold with a slower crank speed. 

[Hugh Conway]

Good morning Ringers
Gets cold here in winter too. Not extreme, but enough that hand starting is difficult or impossible without some extra input. Gen belt removed for start and warm up can still be difficult. I used to heat the intake with a propane torch and wind away.
Now I use a friction starter from Selmaswap......
See this thread for information http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6790.0

Starts easily every time, and well worth the small price. We run nearly every day at this time of year to charge batteries, so this saves a lot of work.
I don't have the ability to do any welding to make up a bracket to hold the starter, but found that the mounting arms welded to the starter fit exactly over 3" aluminum channel. I made up a bracket with the channel using a hacksaw drill motor and file. Attached that to the wooden engine bearers. Starter button and solenoid from Princess Auto and an old pick handle for the lever, and a used battery finished it off.
BTW, I had a couple of halogen reading lights which worked off a wall wart transformer to give 12VDC. Threw away the wall wart and wired them into the battery to give a nice work light for starting in the dark. All together a very simple set-up and reliable too.
There are various other methods, this one works great for me.
Cheers,
Hugh

[Jordan]

Although I have a 6/1, I have never started it yet. I'm still organising the fuel & cooling arrangements.
But, I'm confused about the reported difficulty in getting it over the compression stroke during starting.
The manual mentions an exhaust valve lifter. That should prevent any compression from being created, during the starting phase when all effort is put into getting the crankshaft to spin up.
Only when enough kinetic energy has been created in the quickly rotating flywheels, should the valve lifter be disengaged, compression then taking place for a hopeful start.
Is this right?

[carlb23]

Although I have a 6/1, I have never started it yet. I'm still organising the fuel & cooling arrangements.
But, I'm confused about the reported difficulty in getting it over the compression stroke during starting.
The manual mentions an exhaust valve lifter. That should prevent any compression from being created, during the starting phase when all effort is put into getting the crankshaft to spin up.
Only when enough kinetic energy has been created in the quickly rotating flywheels, should the valve lifter be disengaged, compression then taking place for a hopeful start.
Is this right?

When the engine is very cold and the oil is very thick and the grease in the gen head bearings is very thick it can be difficult to get enough flywheel speed to get it over tdc once the compression release is disengaged.  Before i had a air starter on mine I would give it a good pull on the up stroke to help it get over tdc.  The problem then becomes if it doesn't fire on the first try past tdc it is quite difficult to get it over tdc  a second or third time, by this time you will probably be breathing heavily

Carl

[Jordan]

Thanks Carl, I get it now.

Jordan

[Tom]

A little cranking tip that only took me about 5 years to figure out. Put most of your effort into pushing the crank handle as it moves away from you. My shoulder was getting sore from cranking in the cold, and it never really gets that cold here. Then I changed my cranking style and things go much easier.

[Thob]

Every time something like that happens to me, I hear that quote from Star Wars in my head:

"You are getting weak, old man".

[mike90045]

I have the same issue.  But with a new engine, I'm using 10-40 mineral base oil. After it's broke in (I've got 50 hours on it from last year) I'll switch to synthetic.  And Tom showed me how to lean onto it, instead of pulling up on the crank to spin it.   I'm about to re-assemble it from my thermostat & grinding wheel adventure, and maybe have it running next week.  I've got 3 fat gaskets stacked up to get the housing to clear the thermostat - don't know if it's best to glue them together with silicone gasket goop, or copper kote.  But when cold, I have to pull it through about 3 compressions before it finally fires.
 My new little Subaru/Hatz genset really cranks a while before coughing black smoke and starting in the cold. I have to look into a propane torch setup for it's intake.

[overbore]

Since my 12 valve Cummins has an air heater and since the diesel fuel blends change in cold weather, in addition to the great electric starter installation, mine is a bolt on as my buzz box is basement installed, has anyone explored changing to winter blend diesel and /or mounting an old Dodge inlet air heater to ease the blues of cold starting?

WE have burned lots of bandwith chasing porting so how about air inlet heaters? Cheap enough on e-buy.

Laus Deo
overbore

[dieselgman]

There has been plenty of discussion and several references to various intake preheaters here... Ford makes a very nice little 12volt unit with diesel fuel feed (less than $50 I think)- Lister makes a full electric 12v unit ($85)... many others are readily available.

We stock the aforementioned in our Kansas location.

I will mention that I am fond of the 120vac silicone pad heaters for wintertime preparedness. They come in all shapes and sizes as well as different wattages from about 10 to 150 depending on where you need to place the heat. I use these a lot in Alaska - just glue in place and plug in when the heat is needed... of course 120volt mains power IS required for these types.

dieselgman

[ronmar]

Jordan  Pushing down on the crank handle works great to spin up, but unless you are young and large, you will still run into issues getting enough RPM in the wheels where the stored kinetic energy will be high enough to carry you thru the compression stroke unassisted. This is especially true on a new/fresh engine.  This only gets worse with the cold!  To start these beasts as easy as possible, even when warm, you need to shift to pulling up hard on the handle as soon as you drop the compression release.  Since you will most likely be disengaging the compression release while the exhaust valve is open, which happens on an upward pull of the handle. The next downward stroke of the handle is the intake stroke, and the the hard upward pull only needs to be accomplished on the next upward revolution of the handle.  It is a sutle timing thing which you will pick up pretty quickly once you start trying to start yours.  Look on youtube and wach some being started, and you will probably see what I am talking about since you now know what to look for.  The old guys make it look easy, only cranking it up to a moderate speed, but giving one really hard pull after releasing the compression to get that first fire...  

With cold bearings and belts, the speed will slow to a point that even a good strong last upward pull won't get it thru compression.  You need to warm the bearings to get up to a speed to be able to pull thru by hand.  A little heat applied to the bearing carriers and generator end plates makes a huge difference in cranking ease.  I use alcohol and propane torch to warm these points, but it has to be done gently and takes time for the heat to penetrate to the bearings without cracking/damaging anything or cooking the crank seals.  That is where the electric pony starter really shines.  It's near constant crank force more easilly overcomes the drag of cold parts and cold muscle:)    

[Jordan]

Thanks for the inside dope on Lister starting secrets, Ronmar.
These subtle undocumented tricks are great for a newcomer to learn about.

I'll eventually get some powered starting on my setup (genset), but would like to be confident I can start it manually if needed.
I do have the heavier type flywheels, so that might help too.

Jordan