Concrete Pad for Listeroid 10/1

[Listerational]

Yes, I keep the engine and ST 7.5 generator head on the cart full time. The ST 7.5 is over kill but it lives a very easy life at about 50% of it's maximum capacity. On other posts, I've read comments that the STs are most efficient at about 50% capacity (I.e. Perhaps 83% efficient instead of 82% - anyway it never gets too hot).

As for vibration, my engine is well balanced using essentially the Mr X method discussed here on the forum. If done carefully, it works well. All that weight and all that steel helps smooth things out on a well balanced engine. You can view the videos on Rockeyboy911's Youtube page.

As for moving it. I use the winch to allow the until to pull itself onto a 16 foot utility trailer. Easily moved around on the utility trailer, and over to a friend or relatives house in post hurricane recovery operations if needed. In principle, I suppose the winch could also pull the unit up a set of ramps on to the bed of a pickup truck but this would be a dangerous and a tricky thing to pull off. Overall about 2,000 Lbs and still rather top heavy. If you don't have a utility trailer, you might shop Craig's list. Pulling the nursery cart onto a utility trailer and securing the load should be easy. Utility trailers are so very handy for hauling hay, yard cuttings, junk, furniture, trash, etc. and can usually be purchased rather cheap for a single axle.


I hope this was information was helpful.

Hello Horsepoor,
I noticed that you have a 20/2 with a 15kw ST. Do you have this on a cart also?
Thanks,
Jim

[Horsepoor]

No cart for the 20/2, I built a heavy frame for it to sit on. Then put on top of several yards of concrete. This is an old picture. http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=2896

Cujet gave me some parts off a Euro helicopter rotor blade assembly which made good vibration absorbers. Incidentally, Chris made a cart for his 20/2, looks like something out of Mad Max, but it is movable.

[Listerational]

No cart for the 20/2, I built a heavy frame for it to sit on. Then put on top of several yards of concrete. This is an old picture. http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=2896

Nice building Horsepoor. Did you build it yourself? I am thinking about putting my 10/1 in my attached garage but I am worried about the fumes getting into the house. Do you think if I simply vent the muffler to the outside I can handle the fumes problem?

Thanks,

Jim

[Tom]

No, you'll still have some blow-by from the crankcase. That can be remedied though.

[Listerational]

No, you'll still have some blow-by from the crankcase. That can be remedied though.

Thanks for the tip Tom.

[Listerational]

Hello Folks,

Since I am going to put my generator in my garage on an existing slab is it safe to say that I should break up the concrete floor at the listeroid pad location and pour me a nice big pad in the ground? Otherwise I would have to somehow attach my new listeroid pad to the existing garage concrete floor.

Thanks for the great advice here on this forum.

Jim

[ronmar]

You could do that, or you could build a wooden form and pour a block of concrete setting on top of the existing floor with the anchor bolts incorporated.  You could set the form on a rubber mat for some vibration isolation.  This has a few advantages. 1. It raises the engine up higher to make it easier to hand start and to work on.  2.  It makes moving it somewhere else easier and does not damage the existing floor(future resale value and all that). 3. It adds a large mass which is a proven method for damping the torque pulse(and any imbalance) these large slow speed singles are known for.   

[Listerational]

Good points ronmar. Do you have any idea how many pounds of concrete I should use for a Powerline 10/1 with a 7.5kw ST head?
About the height, I have the generator bolted to a 4" I beam frame. The frame with generator are just sitting on the concrete floor in the garage. I actually like the height the way it is so far.  So I am not interested in raising generator too high. As far as vibration, If I pour a block of concrete on top of the concrete floor either with an isolation mat or without one will the block vibrate on the concrete floor?

Thank you,

Jim

[ronmar]

Well my base is about 3' X 6' X 10-11" thick.  It weighs in around 1500# probably. This raised the generator nearly 12" as the block sits on top of a rubber stall mat.    Mine was setup similar to yours in my garage on a 4' box tube frame when I balanced it.  I found it much nicer when it was raised up onto the block. In particular It was way easier to crank(6/1 ST-5) for my aging back:).  My block was an old front step that I repurposed. I put a piece of sheet metal underneath it and bored holes for the frame mount bolts. I welded threaded bosses onto the sheet that protruded up into the holes and screwed allthread down thru the holes into the bosses.  Once everything was inplace, I flooded the concrete holes with an anchor epoxy and torqued the mounting nuts down. 

As to movement, mine dosn't have any detectable motion, if it does, it is absorbed by the rubber mat. 

If I had it to do over, which I may when I build my new house, I would do it a little differently in that I would make it a little taller(14"?) which would probably push the weight closer to 2000#...   

[Listerational]

My block was an old front step that I repurposed. I put a piece of sheet metal underneath it and bored holes for the frame mount bolts. I welded threaded bosses onto the sheet that protruded up into the holes and screwed allthread down thru the holes into the bosses.  Once everything was inplace, I flooded the concrete holes with an anchor epoxy and torqued the mounting nuts down. 

Is this your concrete base? If so did you drill holes all the way through the concrete base for generator mounting?

Thanks,

Jim



If I had it to do over, which I may when I build my new house, I would do it a little differently in that I would make it a little taller(14"?) which would probably push the weight closer to 2000#...   

[ronmar]

Yes I bored all the way thru the 10" thick concrete block for the bolts(long pieces of allthread) to mount the generator frame to the top of the block.

Here is the only pic I have that shows the base.  The generator frame in yellow is bolted to the block at the ends.  The red oil can is setting on the concrete block.  To the right and up, you can see the metal plate that sets under the block to which the long threaded rods are screwed into.  Below the plate is the rubber mat which can also be seen in the picture.

[Listerational]

Yes I bored all the way thru the 10" thick concrete block for the bolts(long pieces of allthread) to mount the generator frame to the top of the block.

Here is the only pic I have that shows the base.  The generator frame in yellow is bolted to the block at the ends.  The red oil can is setting on the concrete block.  To the right and up, you can see the metal plate that sets under the block to which the long threaded rods are screwed into.  Below the plate is the rubber mat which can also be seen in the picture.

Thanks for the explanation ronmar. Mine is starting to take shape in my mind.
Your generator sure has a nice shiny paint job on it.

Take Care,

Jim

[Listerational]

Hello All,

Today I actually made progress with setting up my Powerline 10/1 7.5 ST.

I decided to install the gen set in my garage so I cleaned out a space in the corner.
Then I placed the generator in the location of its new home.
Next I marked the 6 - holes where my anchors will be installed.
Finally I drilled 6 - 1/2" holes in the concrete.

I ran into a few nagging questions though....

First, how do I make the generator level? The 4" concrete floor has some slope to it. Zackstacks recommended using grout. I do not know how this is done but my best guess would be to slide fender washers over all but the highest anchors until all of the washers are level. So I use my level and make sure all of the anchors have enough washers slipped over them to make them all level. Once this is done I can pour some grout over the spots where the generator I beams will be in contact with the floor. Does anyone have any recommendations on this.

Second, I have been getting great advice from you guys about using epoxy in the anchor holes. Can you please recommend a good epoxy?

Third, Should I use a rubber pad of some sort? If so, can you please make a recommendation for me? If I use one then my grout design described above will have to be redesigned. Or maybe I can drill 6 - holes in the rubber pad that will go right over the anchors. Which leads to another question, will the wet grout dissolve the rubber pads?

Fourth, is the 4" concrete floor enough mass to hold the generator in place? If not, how much more concrete do you recommend that I add? I kinda like the low height.

Thanks for all the help. Everyone on this forum has been an inspiration. I can't wait to get this baby set up nicely.

If anyone has any electrical code questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Jim

[mike90045]

google  "Simpson Strong-Tie concrete epoxy" to find the dealer near you.   It's a simple "42" step procedure.

Drill hole with masonry bit (s) in concrete - read the label first to find out what size hole to drill for your size of anchor bolt.
 (I did my drilling in 2 steps, small pilot hole, then the final di hole.)  Some masonry bits require water, some don't   Be sure.  You don't want to punch through the concrete - if it's a 4" slab, I'd only go 3.5" and stop.  I don't even know if 4" slab is thick enough for a listeroid, or if it has enough re-bar in it to not crack in 90 seconds.

If you hit a piece of re-bar, they have a special masonry bit with notches to chew through it, plain bit's wont cut rebar.

Then you brush and air blast the hole clean

Then you clean the SS all-thread you plan to use - get all the oils off

Clean the holes.  Clean the all-thread.   get some newspaper (mop up mess) and wax paper (use as non-stick washer under fender washer)  place a nut, fender washer, waxpaper washer on the all-thread, and get all of them ready. 

get the epoxy ready, the caulk gun it installs with, and be sure you got enough epoxy (chart for hole depth and di, and bolt di) on side of packaging, and I found an on-line calculator for this too.  Mine used 2 tubes, and I had a little left over.  Without the washer, the bolt wants to settle deeper, and ooze epoxy up into the washer and threads and nut, mess to clean out.

let cure for a couple extra days.

Don't use grade 8 bolts, shock will snap them.

[Listerational]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the good advice. When you speak of SS all-thread are you speaking of stainless steel threaded rod?
I have to anchor large air compressors from time to time and I typically use wedge anchors for this application. Do you find the wedge anchor inadequate?

Thanks,

Jim