ARE THESE GUYS MISSING IT?

[GuyFawkes]

The title of this post is "ARE THESE GUYS MISSING IT?"

I posted yes. Here is why.

We are a fairly smart bunch, and as such it is possible that one of us could take said products and run with it. If the quality were better, there could be no end to the possibilities. Importation of engines is certainly one way to make money. But, I suppose my point is that one of us could use the manufacturing expertise of a Lister maker to make bigger and better things. Florida is ripe for gensets. Slow speed diesel engines make some sense. ETC!

These guys have missed out on the American opportunity!

Chris

so go to china and get them built properly there.

[cujet]

Yes, Guy, that is possible.

However there are no Lister type engines currently made in China that I know of. Matter of fact, I do not know of any small, slow speed Chinese diesel engines. Only the Changfa HSD.



Chris

[t19]

you could always buy an original Lister and use it as a patern to build new ones

[solarguy]

Part of this is a cultural thing.  The West and the East are as different as, well, east and west.  Some places in the great East have appropriated some of the better ideas of QC and manufacturing from the west, like Japan.  Some have not.  But look at where they have come from.

I can remember when "made in Japan" used to mean cheap knock-off crapola.  They had such a bad rap at one time that they named a town in Japan Usa, so they could "legitimately" print

Made in Usa

   Japan

To at least make it look like better stuff.

I recall reading a description of Japan just prior to WWII.  They were ramping up production on all the essential war stuff they could for obvious reasons.  A higher up guy was going around to little suppliers out in the countryside to whip up more production.  He described a little family run business.  They made vacuum tubes of various kinds.  Some in the house, some in the shed, all on a dirt floor.  Most worked, some didn't.  That's just how they did it.  Life was risky and they could die tomorrow, so they didn't get all worked up about long term issues.  They couldn't afford a better floor, so they coped with what they had and likely had never seen a proper cement floor anyway.

And look at Japan now!  If China and India both get their act together, all us westerners better get used to twenty dollar a day wages.  

Be careful what you wish for.

troy

[Tom]

Possibly the Indians, with all their poor business practices, haven't figured out yet that is not profitable to manufacture Listeroids and the Chinese have.

[GuyFawkes]

And look at Japan now!  If China and India both get their act together, all us westerners better get used to twenty dollar a day wages. 

Be careful what you wish for.

troy

china is actually REALLY interesting, at the moment it is an even call if they run short of water and food, or iron and fuel, first, if they can crack their food and pollution problems, then yes, they'll blow the US (and others) economies into the dirt.... they'll do it because anyone alive in china in 1960 will have vivid memories of subsistence diets and so they have a willingness to work at things at stupendous levels of dedication for many years just for imagined future returns.

in short, they are "hungry" for success

for foreign companies they are great too, the legal system is barely born and has enough holes to sail supertankers through.

[Ironworks]

All I can say is if you want your kids toget ahead you better get them learning how to speak Cantonese.

[GuyFawkes]

All I can say is if you want your kids toget ahead you better get them learning how to speak Cantonese.

funnily enough I was watching an ALL CHINESE wedding reception in hangzhou county about an hours ago, and the toasts and everything were all done in extremely good english

affluent chinese have a MAJOR hard on for older european culture, literally building full size replicas of palace of versailles and stuff like that for themselves...  they can't really take on any modern culture, when it comes to old cultures there are only japanese, the asian peninsula ones, indian, and european.

they still hate japan, they still have diplomatic problems with india and asian peninsula, so european is all that was left

great pragmatists the chinese

[Halfnuts]

Troy, you mentioned Japan and quality a ways back.  Funny how I, too, was brought up to equate "Made in Japan" with poor quality.  Back in the '60s I remember an episode of the Beverly Hillbillies (don't ask why) in which Minnie Pearl was making a cameo appearance as Uncle Jed's sister or cousin or something.  She was putting down the Clampetts' fancy and expensive china and tableservice because it came from England. 

"My china comes from MUCH farther away than yours," she bgagged.  "Mine is from Japan!" 

At the time that was a joke that everyone got.  However now anyone who has Mikasa china would wonder where the humor was, but at the time, everyone understood that "Made in Japan" meant "Junk." 

A great quote from the Bible is

"A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house." 

Check out William Deming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Edwards_Deming 

Here was an American statistics professor whose statistical process control innovation was largely ignored in the U.S. during the early postwar years, though he was an assistant to Gen. MacArthur before the latter stepped on is dick and got fired for insubordination.  During his work in Japan Deming found a receptive audience among the ruined fragmented companies who were desperately trying to rebuild after the devastation of their homeland.  At the same time, in his own homeland, GM, Ford and Chrysler were busily cranking out crap quality cars that, if they lasted 100,000 miles, they were ready to be scrapped.  Deming's ideas and the cooperative spirit of the Japanese people at the time quickly transformed their industries, resulting in an economic boom that became the envy (and the terror) of the industrial world just 20 years later.  Talk to any Japanese who was educated in Japan and mention Deming and expect to get an ear-full.  He remains a national hero in Japan.

An excellent and easy reading book that chronicles Deming's work and techniques and explains how they were implemented in Japan is still abailable at
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0029291003/qid=1150848090/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8910738-8097704?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
I had to read it about 20 years ago as part of my MBA coursework. 

Now, the question remains, Why isn't this happening in India?  There are differences in the two cultures that, unless something changes, I believe will doom India, like the mythical Sisyphus, to forever push a boulder up the hill.  Japan is a largelly monolithic society.  The people have a common heritage, a commonn history, common historical enemies (China and Korea) a common language and a great work ethic based on personal and family honor. 

India is exactly the same, only totally different.  You could probably not find two more different societies than Japan and India.  I'll spare you the sociology lecture, but if you're interested, you can read one viewpoint about what makes India tick at
http://www.vishalmangalwadi.com/carey/c1.htm and

http://www.vishalmangalwadi.com/NewAge/Contents.htm

Halfnuts

[Doug]

Funny with 7% growth the third fastest growing economy in the world Russia gets no attention. I wonder what they are doing with alll that production? Anyone seen some of the stuff they produce? Where are the Russian diesel engines and machine tools ect....

Seriously I walk threw the machine shop where I work and I see Soviet machine tools we bought in the 70's. It was quality stuff what gives? I found a line of Stationary engines in Ukraine last fall but when I tried to get one I was told the production run had ended. Nice self windng watches with quality movements at a both in Toronto now they're out of production. The Factory that produced T34 tanks and now construction equipment has a website but the don't reply to my emails. Why is it only the crap gets shipped here?

Doug

[Halfnuts]

The Russians used to have a saying during the Cold War when they were paid with worthless rubles.  "They pretend to pay us, so we pretend to work."  That attitude pervades three generations of Russians.  Combine a poor work ethic, a national malaise bred of despair and endemic corruption and an uncertain commitment toward western ideals of a free market, self-determination and international cooperation and you can understand why many investors are reluctant to re-engage the Bear.

Halfnuts

[Doug]

Actualy investment in Russia is hot right now, at least in my buisness...
But I don't see manufactured product coming out like it did in Soviet days. I understand in those days they exported everything in order to earn real money (dollars). Now its different, lots of joint ventures and massive importing of equipment and technology.
But where is the product? There's not a Neva or Lada to be had anymore.
Money goes in nothing coming out, the ecconomy is growing at 7% and we see nothing, know what I mean now?

Brazil is realy producing a lot of things for export, those items I see electric motors, pumps auto parts at about the same growth rate.

"The pretend to pay us we pretend to work" Thats on my lunch pail....

Doug

[Halfnuts]

I have some expat Russian friends/acquaintances who are very cynical and gloomy (even for Russians, who make Swedes look jovial by comparison!) about their former homeland's future prospects.  To hear them tell it, massive corruption in government and organized crime are bleeding their economy, and many of the older people openly yearn for a return to the old days of centralized government, and that divides them.  And Mr. Putin seems to be the kind of leader who could go either way. 
Fix those things and you've got an enormous resource rich country populated by well educated people with a long history of greatness in every area of endeavor. 

My impression is that there is no national goal that unifes those people.  Japan had it at the end of WW II when the monarchy and the last remnants of their feudal system were set aside: it was Modernization.  The leadership and the people embraced change as their salvation and acted to make it a reality.  I don't see that in Russia.  My handful of Russian expat friends say that undoing 70 years of damage to their institutions will take time, and they fear that there is a window of time that we are in now in which almost anything can happen.

Halfnuts

[oldnslow]

I deleted my original rant because it was rude and shortsighted.

Everyone takes a shot at putting a finger on exactly why there is so much junk but then some quality miraculously shows up now and then. Indians have the original as a model. They have many, many years of experience. They should know almost as much as Lister does about what goes into a good running listeroid engine because many lives and villages depend on them. So based on that I theroize:

That the good manufacturers already exist over there. It may be simply that the quality Indian factories have the best resources and markets and labor supplies monopolized. They operate at capacity and do not want to bother with the extra production and expense involved with developing such a small small market.  Conversely, someone else cobbled together a shop and makes second-rate stuff for cheap to carve out a living. They survive on crumbs in their home markets so they are hungry. They list their site on the web and in come the inquiries. Exports are easy and are pre-paid. With the internet, they can communicate easily and cheaply. They muttle along from one deal to the next without looking forward. The only motivation is easy cash and more of it. Kind of a universal motivation right? I think many of our current suppliers (not all) are like that. Some see the demand for (their brand of) product has declined and are smart enough to change, others may not.

Its an easy bet that if the market grows (big if) then the better quality Indian producers will notice and step in. The dealer who taps and locks up the best source first will be the winner.

OK, rant over.

[SHIPCHIEF]

The only way to get quality is to have an onsite inspector witness the assembly and testing of each engine.
Scott E