Author Topic: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2  (Read 10702 times)

michiel

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Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« on: October 05, 2012, 01:26:24 PM »
Hello,

At the moment I am running a CS 6/1 (No.21136110), ex SOM, with an ST5 head.
The 6/1 has the 24" heavy fly wheels.

At long last, I have now found my 10/2. (No.14854)
Acquired through the Dutch "Marktplaats" (ebay equivalent)
(BTW well worth keeping an eye on this site, some good Lister deals!!)

This engine has the spoked flywheels.

I now want to swap my 6/1 over for the 10/2, and get more out of the ST5.

The question is:
Can I swap the heavy flywheels over from the 6/1 onto the 10/2, or am I going to get balancing, or any other issues??

Michiel
 
11kW Gaia-wind, 3.85kW PV mounted on 3x trackers, Borehole fed 32kW GSHP, 10m^2 Flat plate Solar, 100x58mm (Navitron) ET's, 1000Lt heat store,  WVO Lister CS CHP, WVO powered VW Caddy, 4 chickens and 3 ducks, (edit, ducks no more, taken by fox!)
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ronmar

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2012, 02:04:27 PM »
I suppose it would depend on how the 10/2 is balanced.  I would suppose the twin balance regime would be different, and the externally balanced SOM wheels may not work well on the 10/2...  I guess you need to look carefully at the flywheels and gauge the overall weight VS the percentage of counterweight and moment to determine the counter force generated by the counterweight at a given RPM.  That would be the first thing I would look at if contemplating such a change...  
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 11:09:25 PM by ronmar »
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

xyzer

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2012, 02:30:13 PM »
Not sure but are the keyways cut 180 deg off for a twin?
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Quinnf

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 02:42:59 PM »
I suspect SOM flywheels for a 6/1 won't be balanced the same way as they are for a 10/2.  The 10/2 had aluminum pistons and therefore would require less counterweight to balance the reciprocating forces.  Were I you, I'd pose your question on the Smokstak.com "vintage diesel" forum.  The admin there, Peter, will know for certain.  http://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=60

Quinn
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Tom

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 04:35:13 PM »
With the extra power pulse and reciprocating mass the extra weight might not be needed. I've never seen a set of heavy flywheels on a twin, has anyone else?
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

michiel

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2012, 08:20:08 PM »
Thanks for replies so far lads.

The main reason for changing the flywheels is for matching up with existing ST5.
Pulley on this has double D profile for twin belts, matching standard 24" SOM flywheel.
Spoked flywheel on 10/2 is flat and has separate wide, small diameter pulley for wide belt.  

I feed the generation from the ST5 through a sunny boy inverter, so I agree there is no need for having the heavy flywheels.

Could I feed the ST from the existing flywheel?
Would I change the pulley on the ST to take a flat belt, and run this of existing spoked wheel?
Will this work, or would it be difficult to stop it running off the wheel?

I will ask Peter for his opinion.
 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 08:22:56 PM by michiel »
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ronmar

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2012, 11:16:57 PM »
You could put a serpentine pully on the ST-5 and run it with a 6-8 rib automotive belt right off of the flywheel outer circumference.  It won't wander a bit and the flat flywheel surface provides more than enough friction to pass the 10 HP you are dealing with.  For that matter, i have seen this done with single and dual standard V belts.  I prefer the flat serpentine belts though as they obviously wont flip/twist in operation...

What frequency are you running on the ST5 output?  That info as well as desired engine RPM and flywheel outside diameter are all you need to calculate a pully size for the ST.  My 6/1 at around 650 RPM and 24" wheels takes a 8.25" pully on the ST-5 to deliver 60HZ...

PS 6/1 - ST-5.

rleonard

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2012, 03:35:22 PM »
I agree that a serpentine belt over the flywheel will work just fine.  You might get a chirp at start-up, but advantages far outweigh the use of V belts. 

Here is a 12-2 with heavy wheels.





However this was done to address a specific problem and not stock.  This engine ran an Amish wood shop.  They were getting speed variation that was showing up in the wood finishing on the lathes and saws.  The heavy wheels were added to address this.  Note the taper lock hubs and the pulley bosses cast into the flywheels.  I have never seen that on any other CS Lister.  They ran it until the crankshaft broke due to excessive loading.  The drive pulley was mounted at the extreme end of the crankshaft.  Over time it fatigued and broke the crank just inboard of the flywheel.  Pictures are posted somewhere here on the forum.

Bob
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LowGear

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2012, 06:12:03 PM »
Plastic barrel for cooling.  Neat!

Lots of cars have plastic radiators once you think about it.  Nice cross thinking.

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ronmar

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2012, 06:58:01 PM »
Providing it is the right type of plastic!  I don't think I would choose that type of poly barrel for a cooling system.  You also loose some of the heat transfer benefit a steel barrel gives you(slower heat transfer thru the poly)...
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

michiel

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2012, 07:59:13 PM »
OK,

I think I have to rethink plans now.

The sole purpose of my engines is to provide electric and heat. I do not show them, they work, as originally intended, for a living.

At the moment I have running on WVO;

A 5/1 SOM. 1950's, completely overhauled and original head.
Runs as intended, but not 100% reliable. I do not leave it running unattended for too long.
Probably needs electrics looked at, and maybe, at 60yrs old, I am asking too much from it.

A 6/1, ex SOM engine, matched to a ST5
The engine has been refurbished with a new cylinder jacket and head. A right mix-match, but 100% reliable.
Runs every day, normal servicing and very economical.

My original idea was to swap the 6/1 with the recently acquired 10/2, to get more out of the ST5.
I, rather naively now, thought of simply swapping the fly wheels over, for ease of connection.

I really only have space for 2 engines.

Now I am thinking of keeping the reliable 6/1 - ST5 combination.
Acquiring another ST5 head with serpentine pulley to match new 10/2

Disposing (reluctantly) of 5/1 SOM.
This would finance new ST5 head and go towards the new 10/2

What would the 5/1 SOM realistically fetch?
Any takers here??

11kW Gaia-wind, 3.85kW PV mounted on 3x trackers, Borehole fed 32kW GSHP, 10m^2 Flat plate Solar, 100x58mm (Navitron) ET's, 1000Lt heat store,  WVO Lister CS CHP, WVO powered VW Caddy, 4 chickens and 3 ducks, (edit, ducks no more, taken by fox!)
WVO Lister ST2 feeding 3kW immersion, Lister LT1 genn

Bottleveg

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2012, 08:05:43 PM »
Yes you can put your 6/1 SOM flywheels onto a 5/1, 10/2 or 12/2.
The 6/1 and 3/1 range were only fitted with spocked flywheels unless they were driving a generator. You’ll have to fit SOM type big end bearings as all the engines with semi solid flywheels had a heavy-duty top shell. Order 6/1 SOM or 8/1 bearings.
8/1, 16/2 and VA flywheel(s) are a smaller diameter, and always semi solid, so only suitable for exchange with each other.
You can also increase the revs on the 10/2 to 650rpm and make it a 12/2.
The 12/2 in SOM form would have driven a 6kw genny, the 10/2 was fitted with a 5kw.

dieselgman

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2012, 08:21:33 PM »
What location?

dieselgman
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michiel

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2012, 08:26:15 PM »
Hi Bottleveg,

I am now getting complete contradicting advice here.

You say I could exchange my 6/1 SOM flywheels onto the 10/1, and just received from the SmokStak forum:

quote:
The single cylinder flywheels are designed to balance the single cylinder engine and the twin flywheels are designed to balance a twin and they are therefore completely incompatible for obvious reasons if you look at the balance masses in relation to the key irrespective of the more minor issues of size,shape weight etc. They must not be swapped.

????
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michiel

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Re: Exchanging flywheels between 6/1 and 10/2
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2012, 08:27:48 PM »
Dieselgman,

I'm in Perthshire. (Scotland)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 08:30:21 PM by michiel »
11kW Gaia-wind, 3.85kW PV mounted on 3x trackers, Borehole fed 32kW GSHP, 10m^2 Flat plate Solar, 100x58mm (Navitron) ET's, 1000Lt heat store,  WVO Lister CS CHP, WVO powered VW Caddy, 4 chickens and 3 ducks, (edit, ducks no more, taken by fox!)
WVO Lister ST2 feeding 3kW immersion, Lister LT1 genn