Author Topic: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring  (Read 27875 times)

ristle

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Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« on: April 26, 2012, 09:01:36 AM »
Hello,
I have a Lister ST1 with a Brush SCTF117 alternator. This seems to be a combined alternator that generates both AC single phase and DC 12 V. It looks like the 12V part can be used to start the engine too. The alternator has two slip rings and a collector. I have three external power resistors and I suspect a fourth to be missing. One of the resistors controls the charging current for the battery.

Unfortunately I found many wires disconnected so I need to know how to connect again. You could help me by:
a) Post connection diagram No. E9840256
b) Tell me the type of the AC and the DC machine (synchronous/asynchronous, series/shunt wound)
c) Tell me how many resistors there are and if there must be another device like a voltage regulator

Any help appreciated.

Regards, a Lister enthusiast

FrederickW

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2012, 11:19:10 AM »
The manual for this machine can be found in the www.listerenginegallery.com User galleries, Album: Frederick.
a) Diagram E9840256 is on page 8.
b) The machine is a synchronous AC rotating armature alternator with no load excitation provided by a DC armature and shunt field, a series connected full load current auxiliary field winding fed by a rectifier provides additional load compensation. Page 4.
c) Only the main field resistor is normally required for the machine to work. The auxiliary diverter is only supplied if deemed necessary during works testing. Page 5.

dieselgman

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2012, 02:31:44 PM »
Try this one... easier to read the fine print -



dieselgman
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 07:47:03 PM by dieselgman »
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ristle

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2012, 05:34:20 PM »
Dear FrederickW
You made me soo happy!! Of course the complete manual of the machine is the best help possible but I gave up even asking for one because of so many unsucessful trials. Thank you very much.

On my machine somebody took the rectifier out and also the middle ring of the potentiometer.

I am also fascinated about the beauty of the physics in this machine. It has no separate exciter machine, no transformer and no voltage regulator. It includes starter, battery alternator and main generator in one item. Looks elegant and rock sturdy!

The longer I work with synchronous machines the more they fascinate me.

Regards

ristle

FrederickW

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2012, 07:46:15 PM »
The manual for these does turn up on epay occasionally. This one sold on May 16th 150813150406. Considering how many of these machines were produced over the years I was surprised at how little information seems available online. I knew you would find the manual useful, sorry I didnít post about its existence in the gallery earlier, but I was slow to realise I could post.

It is common to see these machines fitted with modern replacement spade terminal silicon rectifiers and working well.  Original compounding rectifier for the 117 230V 50Hz has part No. 28111-549. I believe these to be selenium.

Try Arcol www.arcolresistors.com for a replacement slider.

Although some of these machines are still in service today, having given thousands of hourís service they were an economy alternator. This type of compound excitation does not cope well with reactive loads. Page 12. It is however preferable to modern capacitive regulated crap. Output voltage is present between the auxiliary field and frame which is therefore more susceptible to low insulation resistance, whether or not the resin bonded field coils on some models had anything to do with addressing this I donít know. Brush has a patent on a very similar excitation method, GB950106. I am not aware of another alternator manufacturer that used directly rectified load current compounding.
If I was to choose an excitation system used on small alternators which I thought had beauty of physics? Then the 1940ís development of the Magnicon by Macfarlane stands out. The peak of rotating electromagnetic voltage regulating technology, a member of the cross field rotating amplifier family. Admittedly a small full wave rectifier is required on ac machines for the control loop. Lost to history in less than a life time.

magnicon

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2012, 09:54:46 AM »
As my username suggests I have always had a soft spot for 'Magnicon' alternators,out of all the types I dealt with these were the least troublesome,perhaps a bit sensitive to brush spring tension as the field current was high and on one occaision the rectifier you mentioned failed (running off load luckily) and allowed the voltage to rise high enough to cause the sliprings to flash over.They still pop up on Ebay from time to time.

ristle

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2012, 06:33:36 PM »
Hm, after reading carefully the generator will not be of much use for the planned purpose of running fridges. Fridges switch on and off so it is not easy to do power factor correction by capacitors.

What do you think, is it possible to reconfigure this machine with current and voltage transformers for better performance on inductive loads? Which devices are needed and where do I get them?

Thob

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2012, 08:16:10 PM »
Hm, after reading carefully the generator will not be of much use for the planned purpose of running fridges. Fridges switch on and off so it is not easy to do power factor correction by capacitors.

What do you think, is it possible to reconfigure this machine with current and voltage transformers for better performance on inductive loads? Which devices are needed and where do I get them?

Try placing the power factor correction capacitors on the refrigerator compressor, downstream of the relay/thermostat (the caps still go line to neutral).  That way, the caps are only on the line when the motor is.  Size each capacitor for each fridge.
 
Witte 98RC Gas burner - Kubota D600 w/ST7.5KW head.
I'm not afraid to take anything apart.
I am sometimes afraid I'm not going to get it back together.

ristle

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 06:16:10 PM »
Try placing the power factor correction capacitors on the refrigerator compressor, downstream of the relay/thermostat (the caps still go line to neutral).  That way, the caps are only on the line when the motor is.  Size each capacitor for each fridge.

I am not an expert on power factor correction but this seems too simple to be true. The manual states: "The use of split phase type induction motors is not recommended with SCA/SCT generators", wherever you put capacitors or not. Another argument is that if it would be easily possible to perform a good PFC on fridges, the electrical suppliers would force the fridge manufacturers to implement it.

So to me it sounds the combination of a current transformer together with a voltage transformer (and a rectifier needed anyway) in the generator/starter is the better alternative. However, I need the transformer ratios... Any help appreciated.

Rangie

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2017, 05:52:23 PM »
Hi Folks,

Ancient topic I know but I am trying to source the same manuals/diagrams and can't seen to find/access the listerengine galleries.
Is there a fresh link to this resource/gallery?  :-\

Any help gratefully received.  :)
Alec.

Lister ST2/Brush 7kva 2-voltage single phase.
Lister FR2 7.5kVA Genset, ST2-Brush 7kVA Genset, SR1 Compressor, TS3 Dumper, 6-1 CS, LR1, PH2 x3, MacFarlane Magnicons, Stamford C-Range.

westray

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 10:22:18 PM »
Hi Folks,

Ancient topic I know but I am trying to source the same manuals/diagrams and can't seen to find/access the listerengine galleries.
Is there a fresh link to this resource/gallery?  :-\

Any help gratefully received.  :)
Alec.

Lister ST2/Brush 7kva 2-voltage single phase.

Same request from me. Can a new route to this manual be supplied as the quoted one does not work? Cheers

dieselgman

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 10:46:16 PM »
We should have the manuals in our archives.

Lister Engine Gallery was abruptly shut down and apparently lost to all.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

AdeV

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2017, 10:48:26 PM »
Unfortunately, the old ListerEngineGallery has gone off the air, and since it's owner (Marcus) is no longer around, we can't ask him for a backup.

You might try https://www.internalfire.com, they've got a wide range of manuals for old engines. You have to register, I can't remember if they charge or not, but if they do its going to a good cause.
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

ts2man

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2017, 12:26:42 AM »
I have my own copy of the manual. Send me your email and I can forward you a pdf copy.

Faema

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Re: Brush AC/DC Generator-Starter wiring
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2017, 12:21:56 AM »
Hi AdeV.
I have a HR2 with Brush 12.5KVA Alternator. If you have a wiring diagram, I would be super grateful. The top box has 14 connections that have all been snipped. I assume I will need to install a deep-sea controller.... My email address is paul@goforth.co.nz. Best regards Paul Spence