Off-grid Lister & Trace charger

[wlb]

I don't know why I've never found this great forum before.  I've Googled Lister on and off for several years while looking for information, but this is the first time this site has turned up.  What a goldmine of Lister knowledge!!

I'd like to pick the collective brains please.

Does anyone have experience using a Trace (Xantrex) SW3024 inverter/charger to charge an off-grid battery bank using an SL2 with a direct-coupled 4kVA alternator?
I'm having synchronization problems at times when it doesn't make sense.  The Lister gen-set charges perfectly through the older Trace DR2424 which doesn't try to sync.

[camillitech]

Hi Wlb,

I've an HR2 Lister charging via an SW4548e, have you tried going into the 'gen menu' and altering the frequency/voltage parameters? The only bother I ever had with mine was when the AVR on the genny started acting up and it would not synch. Just go into the meter items for voltage and see what's happening as it tries to synch, mine was all over the place and kept failing to synch or dropping out after a few minutes. The other thing you could try is adding a load of 1 or 2Kw onto the genny before whilst it's flashing red and see if that helps it to synch. If it does it could mean your AVR is on the way out or perhaps a governor problem.

I'm no expert by the way so perhaps someone who actually knows what they're talking about will be along shortly 

Cheers, Paul

[dieselgman]

Which generator head and controls do you have on your SL2? That little engine may not have a high degree of speed stability and if the inverter is trying to synch to it, could be related. Does your Xantrex strictly require a power synchronization in order to charge the battery bank?

dieselgman

[wlb]

Sorry for the delayed reply.  I've been away since I posted my question.  I tried to reply a couple of times and got half way through each time when the dodgy motel internet connection vanished - so I gave up.

Hi Wlb,

I've an HR2 Lister charging via an SW4548e, have you tried going into the 'gen menu' and altering the frequency/voltage parameters? The only bother I ever had with mine was when the AVR on the genny started acting up and it would not synch. Just go into the meter items for voltage and see what's happening as it tries to synch, mine was all over the place and kept failing to synch or dropping out after a few minutes. The other thing you could try is adding a load of 1 or 2Kw onto the genny before whilst it's flashing red and see if that helps it to synch. If it does it could mean your AVR is on the way out or perhaps a governor problem.

I'm no expert by the way so perhaps someone who actually knows what they're talking about will be along shortly 

Cheers, Paul

Thanks Paul,

Mine is a 230v model too.  I presume that AVR is automatic voltage regulator?  I could be wrong but I suspect that it doesn't have one and that all regulation is speed related and controlled by the governor alone.  The only "electronics" are the Start-O-Matic box and what looks like the starting battery's charging transformer and rectifier, plus the starter relay.

I did try a 1500w heat-gun as a load but it made no difference, which did surprise me.
I've been into the Generator Menu and played with the voltage and current settings, widening them or reducing them where applicable.
The old DR2424e has a DC current limiter for battery charging but it has always been set to maximum (just a trim pot) and the charger just takes what the generator can deliver - about 50A into a 24v 630AH battery bank during the Bulk stage.  The Lister just loads up and holds steady.

The SW3024e on the other hand limits DC current by limiting AC In current.  My initial sync problem was immediate until I realized that I'd forgotten to divide the AC In current setting by 2 to allow for it being a 230v model, not 110v.  Once I did that it synced OK at first but lost it later after about 10 minutes.

I tried it again today but this time there was a water transfer pump running and it held sync for the whole charging period.  But I suspect that it went into Absorption mode very early as it had been a sunny day.

Warwick

Which generator head and controls do you have on your SL2? That little engine may not have a high degree of speed stability and if the inverter is trying to synch to it, could be related. Does your Xantrex strictly require a power synchronization in order to charge the battery bank?

dieselgman

Thanks dieselgman,

The engine holds quite steady voltage when charging hard through the old inverter/charger.
The alternator is a direct-coupled 1500RPM Lister 4kVA unit with serial no. 29543/35.
I've tried running a 5.6kVA unit driven by a 13HP Honda petrol engine, but it didn't sync properly with that either.

I've got another Honda but can't try that as its capacitors are blown and it's still in bits.  It was running on a very hot day and didn't like it much.

I've also got an 800RPM 8/1 with a belt-driven alternator.  It's skid mounted but not hooked up yet.  (In storage).  That's the engine that I ultimately intend to use and keep the SL2 as the back-up.

Syncing is completely unnecessary for the battery charging.  It's there because the inverter is designed for grid connection too and syncs with the grid before switching over.  When it detects incoming AC from the grid or a generator, it waits to make sure it is steady, synchonizes to it, then switches to battery charging and replaces the inverter output to the house with generator feed-through power.  This allows the batteries to be charged, unloaded.

When not being used to feed AC back into the grid, syncing is unnecessary.  All that happens is a blip of a few milliseconds in the house supply as it changes over.  The only things that really notice it are compact fluorescent lamps which blink slightly, once.  This is how the old DR2424 operates.

Warwick

[camillitech]

Hi Warwick,

think you're right about the AVR, my SR1, ST2 and SR2 don't have them either, just the later HR2 with the EEC generator.

is the generator 1500 or 1800? ie 50 or 60hz and is the Trace the same?

I'm really no electrician so probably not a great deal of help but when it refuses to synch are the voltage and frequency readings stable. That (I think) should give you a clue as to whether it's the inverter or genny that's at fault.

Probably not something you should do without seeking advice BUT, a mate of mine had a similar problem with a cheap Chinese generator and his Victron inverter. He sorted it by just connecting the generator to the house AC bus  Struck me as being a bit drastic but after reading this http://studer-innotec.pro/?cat=whitepapers (AC coupling in mini grids) I could see his logic.

Though I have to say I'd be reluctant to do it myself, still it does make interesting reading.

Good luck, Paul

[wlb]

Hi Paul,

I'm in Australia, so it will be the same as yours.
The SL2 and alternator run at 1500 rpm for 230Vac at 50Hz.

Both inverter/chargers are the Suffix E models for 230Vac at 50Hz.

That Swiss article is interesting - thanks.  It's hard to read though.  I suspect that it has been translated into English.  Translating highly technical articles is not easy.

I need to get some more instrumentation on the generator output so I can see what's going on at a glance.  I've only been using a multimeter and clampmeter attachment so it's not possible to monitor more than one thing at a time and it all changes so quickly.  If I put a decent size panel meter on generator current and voltage I can check the Lister's speed stability and reaction time to load changes.

I might even be able to borrow a CRO to see how clean the output is.

Would I be correct in assuming that the old 800 rpm 8/1 with its huge flywheels and massive alternator would be more stable for short duration load variation caused by the battery charger, but the lighter, faster SL2 would respond better to larger changes?

My experience with the SL2 goes back 12 years to when we bought this property.  My experience with the 8/1 goes back 30 years when I installed it at a ski club lodge at a small off-grid resort.  It was used to replace a petrol Honda that powered a 1920s 32-volt lighting plant and battery bank.  We kept the batteries and added a 240Vac to 32Vdc battery charger and separate 32V to 240V inverter.  If we needed to do any arc-welding, someone had to stay with the Lister and pull on the governor linkage just before the arc was struck because its response time was too slow.  I can't use that method with the SL2 at home because the governor is internal.  I had considered loading it up with a 2400W fan heater which could be switched off as the arc was struck, but in the end I just bought a modern inverter welder and pensioned off the old transformer welder.

That ski club system was installed in the early '60s with the original engine being a hopper-cooled Rosebury kerosene engine.  The Rosebury was later replaced by a tank-cooled Ronaldson & Tippett kerosene engine running on petrol.  A Briggs & Stratton engine replaced the R&T, then the Honda replaced the B&S.

The 8/1 was removed about 8 years ago after the village went onto reticulated power from a couple of big LPG-powered gas turbines.  I bought it from the club as I'd become rather fond of the old thing.  It has more "personality" than the later air-cooled twin.

Warwick

PS.  When I discovered this site I also found a page that helped decipher Lister serial numbers in order to date engines.  Now I can't find it again and I can't remember if it was on this site, was on a link on this site, or if it was just something I found by chance in the Google search.

Can anyone point me in the right direction please?

[dieselgman]

Engine dating pages are here;

http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/EngineDating/Dating.htm


dieselgman

[wlb]

Thanks dieselgman,

I don't have the 8/1's serial number on hand, but using this page http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/EngineDating/Dating5.htm , am I correct in interpreting that my SL2 was built in 1961?

Its number is 3595 SL2 11

I've also discovered another plate on the alternator.  It says ...
Shunt Regulator
7.5 Ohm   3/5

I presume that it relates to the starting battery's charging circuit.  The metal box on top of the alternator, where the starter relay and fuses live, had a toggle switch on the end to give a high or low charging current for the starting battery.  There's a charging current, centre-zero charge-discharge ammeter on the separate control box which houses the Start-O-Matic components.  I disconnected the battery charging circuits years ago and can't remember how it was wired.  These days I just use a pair of modern 12V smart chargers for the pair of 12v starting batteries.

What is 3/5?
I'm guessing that the shunt is the big wire-wound resistor in the box.  It has an adjustable tapping that I assume is related to the "2-speed" charging toggle switch.

Warwick

[listeroil]

Warwick

The shunt regulator is used to adjust the field winding voltage which sets the main output voltage. It has nothing to do with the battery charging side of things. It is usually a big fat wire wound resistor with a adjustable sliding band round it. Sometimes they are located in the top box and sometimes under the rear alternator cover. The 3/5 is the amps rating of the big resistor ie 3.5 amps. Heres a basic diagram that shows how the alternator works.




Mick




I

[wlb]

Thanks Mick.

That makes more sense.
I'll print that and have a closer look at the alternator box on the weekend.

When we bought the property 12 years ago, the Lister was required every night unless it was summer and the we had plenty of direct sunshine that day.  The PV array was very small and I didn't want to cycle the batteries too deeply.  The Start-O-Matic didn't work but I fixed it.  The problem was that the battery charger circuit in the Trace inverter didn't draw enough at first to trigger the Start-O-Matic.  So I had to set up a remote start-stop in the house using a 40W lamp to start the engine and then isolate the lamp and the charger to stop it.

Over a few years, many years ago various components died or wore out, and it stopped working.  The decompressor solenoid died.  The injector pump control solenoid died.
I removed various bits and pieces and now I just have the basics.  The engine is started by using a toggle switch to energize the original starter contactor.  The decompressor isn't used.  Starter batteries are charged with small external chargers.  The engine is stopped by holding the fuel lever down.

The Start-O-Matic cabinet had a drawing inside, and I copied it in AutoCAD years ago.  The cabinet is stored away somewhere and the drawing is on a disc somewhere having changed computers several times since and not having any need for it.  I also drew up a remote start system based on readily available relays and solenoids, but never did anything with it.  Those drawings are filed away somewhere too.

After the original PV array was significantly enlarged there was less need to run the Lister so walking all the way out to the motor shed to start it when needed was no hardship - although it is a bit of a pain sometimes to go out at night and turn it off.  Reinstating a remote Stop would be handy and easy to do.

The whole motor shed is in need of a revamp so I can install the 8/1 and have both engines available.  That might be the time to redo all the wiring and control systems.

Warwick