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Author Topic: Petter AVB Engine - More Information  (Read 13384 times)

listerdiesel

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Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« on: January 16, 2008, 06:33:45 PM »
Having stirred my stumps to get Doug sorted out on the AVI Series I and Series II, I found again the pictures of the two big single-cylinder Caterpillar 1Y73 engines that are lurking in a dark place up at the storage area.

On top of the rack are the mortal remains of the AVB LAB and  AV1 LAB engines that we recovered at the same time as the Caterpillar engines, keeping company with a Lister 5/1 compressor set which currently has the head off while we sort out the liner and head (it filled with water)

All of the details and pictures are at:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Caterpillar/CaterpillarMenu.htm
or
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk/Caterpillar/CaterpillarMenu.htm

The AVB, AV1 and 1Y73 engines were all used in fuel and lubricating oil research, the AVB giving up to 12.5 - 12.8 kW at 2000 rpm, with fuel consumption 3310 ± 20 g/hour. I didn't get any superchargers or turbochargers with the engines and cannot find any manuals or other data on the net that would show how this was carried out.

The AV1 Series I is much more normal with 3.5 - 3.8 kW at 1500 rpm, with fuel consumption 1088,5 ± 22,7 g/hour.

The 1Y73 engines are in a different class altogether, giving 40+ bhp from a single cylinder and a flywheel that would make your eyes water if you tried to move it!

Petters also made a B series diesel, and I wonder if the AVB LAB engine was derived from that? (cue Doug.....)

I am still searching for more information on the AVB, but have yet to find anything significant, other than the fuel research lab's reports and papers.

The B series also eludes me, although I knew where there was one, down in the west country near to Bridgewater in Somerset. I bought a couple of 12/2's off the guy and the B was just sitting there. Water cooled as well....

Peter



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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2008, 08:41:50 PM »
There was B series of diesel?????

This is interesting. Did it look like was it something derived from the Cub or an earlier engine?
Was the B engine intended for Fuel testing or do you have any information?
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listerdiesel

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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2008, 09:05:12 PM »
You'd better believe it!

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/PetterData/petter2.htm

Look towards the bottom:

B Type Series I   B2    12 to 18hp   Diesel    Compression    2B0001 to 2B3838    1949 to 1951
B Type Series II   B2    13 to 20hp   Diesel    Compression    2B3839 - on    1951 to 1964
B Type Marine   B2    18.5 to 19hp   Diesel    Compression    2BM3839 - on    1951 to 1964
B Type Series I   B3    18 to 27hp   Diesel    Compression    3B0001 to 3B0499    1950 to 1951
B Type Series II   B3    20 to 30hp   Diesel    Compression    3B0500 - on    1951 to 1964
B Type Marine   B3    27½ to 28hp   Diesel    Compression    3BM0500 - on    1951 to 1964
B Type Series I   B4    24 to 36hp   Diesel    Compression    4B0001 to 4B0740    1949 to 1951
B Type Series II   B4    26 to 40hp   Diesel    Compression    4B0741 - on    1951 to 1964
B Type Marine   B4    37 to 38hp   Diesel    Compression    4BM0741 - on    1951 to 1964

Note the Series I and Series II again, look familiar?

I think this one was all Petter and not the result of the earlier Cub/AV1 technology transfer.

HP is well up on the AV and AVA series, these were much bigger bore and stroke.

Realdiesel.co.uk quote:

B2 bore 110mm X stroke 110mm 20bhp @ 1500   Water-cooled. The also quote the makers as J H McLaren of Leeds, who were at the time part of the ABOE group that Petter and Cub Diesel belonged. No single cylinder version either, but they quote up to 4 cylinders.

I have always looked on the B as a Petter engine, and it had the family resemblance regarding the camshaft drive etc etc. Perhaps I ought to go down to Bridgewater and see if Brian still has that one!  There are not many about.

Peter


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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2008, 01:49:34 AM »
Well I'd like to know more about those myself....

A little off topic but how were the two stroke Petter diesels lubricated?

I was also looking at a cut away of a Lanz Bulldog semi diesel and wodered the same thing since its also crank case scavaneged.
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listerdiesel

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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2008, 08:28:41 AM »
Well I'd like to know more about those myself....

A little off topic but how were the two stroke Petter diesels lubricated?

I was also looking at a cut away of a Lanz Bulldog semi diesel and wodered the same thing since its also crank case scavaneged.

Lubricators, mechanically driven on the later/bigger engines, drip-oilers on the earlier ones. All of the diesels were mechanically oiled and had roller/ball main bearings

I have some original Petters Atomic Diesel and S-Type semi-diesel literature which I'll put on the website one of the days.

Petters used a couple of makes of mechanical lubricator, Manzell and Madison-Kipp I think.

Peter

listerdiesel

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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2008, 08:30:11 AM »
Well I'd like to know more about those myself....

Seems strange to say, but there is a surprising lack of information about the B series.

I've been looking back through the engine magazines, and hardly anything shows up on the classifieds.

Peter

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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2008, 11:19:15 PM »
I guess they were utilitarian more than collectable or novel....

Like Jacobson lawn mowers.
They made a great mower, they were orange heavy and ugly and you never see them......

Clinton gas engines, and specific the two strokes they had some good motors and the design was robust enough to even become a chain saw yet I know chainsaw people who never heard of them.

Somethings get tossed on histories Rubish heap and no one notices or cares. We wouldnlteven be talking about Petters here if it weren't for the clones...

One thing Puzzels me.
The Indians knew a good thing when they saw it. They created a modular engine family that was based on the AV series but expanded to use parts from others in the Petter line and who knows what else. I can't speak about the reliability of all these cloned engines but you must wonder how much money Petter Ltd could have saved by doing the same thing? They could have merged so many ranges of engine together around two or three crank cases with different common bore cylinders and heads and saved a lot of money!
They could have even made some very robust SI engines based on the diesels but did non of this.

They could have moved towards a lot of things but instead we read about all these different engines being manufactured around the same time.

So the B engines came n a series 1 and 2.
I wonder if they also had the injector angle and location changed to improve starting?
Did Petter build any precup diesels?
Could these be the B range?
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listerdiesel

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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2008, 11:31:11 PM »
I can't speak about the reliability of all these cloned engines but you must wonder how much money Petter Ltd could have saved by doing the same thing? They could have merged so many ranges of engine together around two or three crank cases with different common bore cylinders and heads and saved a lot of money!
They could have even made some very robust SI engines based on the diesels but did non of this.

They could have moved towards a lot of things but instead we read about all these different engines being manufactured around the same time.

So the B engines came n a series 1 and 2.
I wonder if they also had the injector angle and location changed to improve starting?
Did Petter build any precup diesels?
Could these be the B range?

Firstly, remember that Petters as a company only produced two-stroke engines for quite a long time, and suddenly they went over wholesale to four-stroke, and diesels.

Secondly, Petters were part of ABOE (Associated British Oil Engines) in which there were many other companies who had more experience than Petters in certain areas of engine design.

In the 1947 British Diesel Engine Catalogue, Petters only has one engine series available, and no sign of the AV, AVA, B etc etc.

Jump to 1954, and there are the Series II AV and AVA, the PAZ1 and a whole page of B series (never noticed it before!)

The construction is not typically Petter, and I will get some scans of the AV1 and B cross-sections so you'll see the difference. It does look like a different engine maker to me now.

The B was never made as a single-cylinder, but there is the AVB LAB engine, not available as just an AVB either.

The AV and B engines were also sold as Marine types, AV2M and B2M for example.

The only indirect injection engine in this era was the AV Series 1

Peter



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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2008, 01:16:30 AM »
Cool:

And just when I thought I was beginning to understand I get enlightened....
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listerdiesel

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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2008, 09:34:39 AM »
Cool:

And just when I thought I was beginning to understand I get enlightened....

The B range was gone by the 6th Edition of the catalogue in 1964.

Found the phone number of the guy in Bridgewater re the B engine, tried it this morning but no response (it does ring)  I'll try later and see if he is still around.

Peter

listerdiesel

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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2008, 03:12:10 PM »
Cool:

And just when I thought I was beginning to understand I get enlightened....

The B range was gone by the 6th Edition of the catalogue in 1964.

Found the phone number of the guy in Bridgewater re the B engine, tried it this morning but no response (it does ring)  I'll try later and see if he is still around.

Peter

Just an update, I tried Brian's cell phone again just after lunch, and he was there. He has the engine, plus another in bits with reground crank and new rings etc but in pieces. He does want to sell, so it looks like a trip down to the west Country is on the cards.

He is getting rid of a lot of his junk, possibly he has had complaints about the piles of old machinery and cars around the place, although it is set back from the main road a bit.

Peter

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Re: Petter AVB Engine - More Information
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 10:27:22 PM »
Just updating this info to help out others with the data.

It seems that the Petter AVB engine was also pressure charged by a compressor to give much higher horsepowers than the standard AV and PH series.

I have seen 28bhp quoted for a single cylinder engine with external pressure charging. Lower figures were probably more standard.

I know of only one other AVB that may still be around, and that was owned by Bob Farrow, who I don't have any contact information for.

The AVB1 is a much chunkier engine than the AV1, both made in the LAB engine version but only the AV being produced as as commercial engine.

The AVB1 LAB engine that we have appears to be built on an AV1 Series I crankcase, as the oil pump changes on the Series II engines, but the AVB1 has the same inclined injector as the AV1 Series II, very confusing!

I have finally picked up an AVB1 LAB manual suppiement, so as soon as that arrives I should be able to disclose the bore and stroke of our engine.

this is our AVB1 LAB engine:



Here is a line drawing of the AV1 Series I:



In case you think that this is just another AV1 engine, look at the thickness of the block base and the head thickness, also the AV1 Series II has the different oil pump assembly.

More to follow.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 10:30:23 PM by listerdiesel »