Author Topic: vaporised oil  (Read 10222 times)

spencer1885

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vaporised oil
« on: January 31, 2011, 10:13:00 PM »
I had been talking with people on both forums about a process for addressing the problem of ash from burnt wmo. Vaporising the oil was discussed, but because some of the oil additives also vaporise as wel,l I had been discouraged to persue this idea any further.
Seeing as I can't see any way forward I am rethinking the idea of evaporating the oil.
If this process can be controlled reliably then it may have possibilities.
This idea would be divided into two parts.
Firstly a gas producer and secondly a medium sized petrol engine driving an alternator, which will also provide the power for the gas producer.
As the additives and other things in the finished product will be significantly reduced the engine should survive much longer.
I think this might make producing electricity with wmo cost effective.
As one of my wmo heaters already works on this evaporation principle it should not be too difficult to adapt.

Spencer

westcoaster

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 05:54:16 AM »
These guys have found a way to make all sorts of products from waste motor oil. At 33 million litres of wmo a year you can be sure it's no back yard operation. They have been in operation since '79.
I think they are even exporting their process... New buisness venture for yourself?

http://www.companylisting.ca/Newalta_Corporation2/default.aspx




Then there are these guy's in Bangladesh? Come up with some sort of method of treating and blending with new diesel... (it's a .pdf document)
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=47&ved=0CFIQFjAGOCg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ijens.org%2F103602-1717%2520IJMME-IJENS.pdf&ei=4JBHTe1ygbiwA_rTtMAC&usg=AFQjCNGwqmi6brj-TgKxaFh_gHTq3iiHzw


mobile_bob

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 08:24:17 AM »
the bangladesh paper looks like the chemical process being debated over on
microcogen forum, cognos being in the petroleum biz put us onto that track
rather than the more dangerous distillation process.

i am still interested in how feeding wmo into the reduction zone of a gasifier might work out, and  then use the produced gas in a diesel in dual fuel mode.

personally i think there might be some merit to that approach.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
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billswan

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 02:14:24 PM »
well with the rising price of fuel and the establishment of companies like Newalta recycling used oil.

I predict that when and if we here do find a way to polish and burning the waste oil stream it will have become so valuable to the companies that reclaim it we will no longer have access to the stuff for free. Every one will know it's value and so there will be hardly any point in using it. Because between the bidding for it the collecting and polishing will add up to just a little less than buying fuel at the pump. :( :(

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

mobile_bob

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 03:45:32 PM »
Bill

i think you are likely correct in your assessment

that is why in the end, limiting run time, and at least looking into a hybrid approach
(battery/inverter) will start to make more and more sense to more and more people.

there will come a time that operating an engine driven genset at anything other than peak efficiency will just become too damn expensive.

the days of simply allowing the engine to run all day just to service minor loads most of the time so that one has the capacity to service large loads at ones beckon call are about over, unless one is very wealthy or has an oil well in the back yard.

that is ok by me, it was never a very responsible mode of operation, ( although often times necessary)  for various reasons.

bob g
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listard-jp2

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 04:40:29 PM »
Quote
i am still interested in how feeding wmo into the reduction zone of a gasifier might work out, and  then use the produced gas in a diesel in dual fuel mode.

personally i think there might be some merit to that approach.

An interesting idea that has the potential to remove all of the problems of using WMO as a fuel source, and most if not all of the: pre-filtation, pre-heating, dewatering, polishing, and cutting with other volotile solvents that are asociated with WMO use. The only downside I see to this is the introduction of yet another fuel source. (diesel oil as an equivilant for the pilot ignition on the engine, bio-mass supply, and also a WMO supply) All three would be needed If your engine is going to continue to be compression ignition.

A far more elegant and simple solution would be as follows: I understand that a group in America has a Lister CS converted to operate as a spark ignition engine (with only very minor modifications being required, and this engine has being running on producer gas (albeit experimentally). Taking this a step further and drip feeding WMO into the combustion zone of a boimass gasification plant would be the way to go.

The only problem I forsee is that spark ignition engines do not like using gas produced from gasification plants that contain a high tar content, so complete reduction of the WMO aspect of the fuel mix would be essential, to ensure against problems caused by tar deposits in the engine.

mobile_bob

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 06:35:08 PM »
there are several advantages of dual fueling a diesel over a spark converted diesel

1. you can retain the full compression ratio thus nearly the same power

2. you retain the governor so that stable rpm can be assured for power generation

3. you have a seamless transition from dual fuel back to diesel operation and back to dual fuel with no shutdown between needed.

4. you retain the same ignition timing via injection timing

5. much simpler operation, no need for more complicated carb/mixing apparatus.

basically all one needs to do is make the gas, filter it well and fumigate the intake
with a crude mixer and the engine with its governor and injection system take over control of ignition, timing, rpm and fuel offset.

far simpler than trying to alter an engine to spark ignition in my opinion.

bob g
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listard-jp2

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2011, 10:01:20 AM »
You raise some very valid points there Bob, however some of the issues you have identified have being overcome, and others are by no means insurmountable, for instance:


1. you can retain the full compression ratio thus nearly the same power

The version I saw on the internet used an adaptor which allowed a spark plug to be fitted in place of the injector, and the engine was run with the COV in the low compression setting (yes really, you can run this high a C/R on producer gas, due to the knock resistance of the Methane, Carbon Monoxide, and Hydrogen consituents of the producer gas)

However the introduction of WMO into the equation, might well produce a gaseous fuel that will not tolerate these CR levels, this will hold true for both spark ignition and pilot diesel ignition, but it would be more tolerable on a spark ignition engine as you would only have to reduce the CR, the only way to control it on a pilot ignition diesel engine would be to carefully control the quantity of WMO admitted to the producer gas plant.


2. you retain the governor so that stable rpm can be assured for power generation

This version was also using the original govenor, but linked to a butterfly flap which formed part of the gas mixing carburettor.

3. you have a seamless transition from dual fuel back to diesel operation and back to dual fuel with no shutdown between needed.

Agreed this is a disadvantage, but since no permanent machining modifications have being carried out, you could easily re-activate the Diesel fuel injection equipment and run it as a straight diesel engine, if you a problem with your gas producer plant.

4. you retain the same ignition timing via injection timing

Agreed this is an area which requires investigation, however the version I saw used a hall sensor ignition system with a wasted spark, ignition timing was easily adjusted by moving the position of a magnet fixed on the rim of the flywheel.

5. much simpler operation, no need for more complicated carb/mixing apparatus.

Nothing complex about using a venturi device from an early diesel engine that had a vacuum operated govenor, even Ford transit vans in the UK are fitted with these devices as part of the EGR cleanup system, combined with a gas mixer ring (freely available in the UK for LPG conversion of car engines), and there you have it a crude gas caburettor.



basically all one needs to do is make the gas, filter it well and fumigate the intake
with a crude mixer and the engine with its governor and injection system take over control of ignition, timing, rpm and fuel offset.

There is the additional problem that producer gas contains a high percentage of Nitrogen and to a lesser extent Carbon Dioxide, so you are introducing gases into the engine which will neither burn nor support combustion, now everyone knows that diesel engine like to operate with excess air. I dont know the answer but I suspect that these gases would behave somewhat like the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation gases) do in a modern diesel engine. They lower combustion chamber temperatures [we all know that running your Lister engine too cool, can cause problems] to reduce Nitrous Oxide emissions.


mobile_bob

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2011, 04:08:40 PM »
thanks for the feedback

i too have been following the apl work and the work done by that fellow over in england who name escapes me right now.

from what i read of their earlier dual fuel pilot injection testing, it is my thinking that
the were wrong to try and set the injection at a fixed value and run the governor to control the carb/mixer.

they likely would have had much better results leaving the engine stock and just admitting the gas into the air stream, and allowing the governor to compensate
and offset the amount of diesel injected to maintain load and rpm as needed.

there is some very interesting work with natural gas dual fuel operation of an s1100 changfa style engine in bangladesh, they operate the engine in an unmodified manner
using nat gas, and i can see no reason that it would not operate in the same manner with wood gas, apart from possible issues with the gasifier needing a more direct connection to the engine, possibly to maintain draft?

what i have suggested is to connect the gasifier to a buffer bladder and use a fan blower of variable speed to keep the gasifier operating at a constant flow, and take the gas off the buffer/bladder to feed into the mixer and then directly into the engine.

now using waste motor oil in the reduction zone, not sure whether it would be better to admit it directly into the zone via a controlled drip, or to preheat the devil out of it before admission, or to simply mix it into the biomass feed stock with something like a cement mixer, where it could just apply an even coating to the biomass.

the later might be easier? it might help make things slippery enough to help with bridging in the gasifier?  not sure.

it would seem that coating the feed stock might also allow processing wetter feedstock as well, because the oil would add the needed btu's to help drive off
the unneeded/excess steam?

gasifiers have always interested me, and i would like to see some work with wmo being used in one, most especially in a dual fuel pilot injection diesel.

bob g
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listard-jp2

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2011, 05:33:37 PM »
Quote
i too have been following the apl work and the work done by that fellow over in england who name escapes me right now.
Ken Boak

Quote
there is some very interesting work with natural gas dual fuel operation of an s1100 changfa style engine in bangladesh, they operate the engine in an unmodified manner
using nat gas, and i can see no reason that it would not operate in the same manner with wood gas, apart from possible issues with the gasifier needing a more direct connection to the engine, possibly to maintain draft?


Do you have a link to that site?

Quote
what i have suggested is to connect the gasifier to a buffer bladder and use a fan blower of variable speed to keep the gasifier operating at a constant flow, and take the gas off the buffer/bladder to feed into the mixer and then directly into the engine.


That also sounds like an ideal way to smooth out any sudden loads placed on the engine, if the gas producer plant is not able to compensate quickly enough for a sudden change in demand.

Quote
now using waste motor oil in the reduction zone, not sure whether it would be better to admit it directly into the zone via a controlled drip, or to preheat the devil out of it before admission, or to simply mix it into the biomass feed stock with something like a cement mixer, where it could just apply an even coating to the biomass.

the later might be easier? it might help make things slippery enough to help with bridging in the gasifier?  not sure.

it would seem that coating the feed stock might also allow processing wetter feedstock as well, because the oil would add the needed btu's to help drive off
the unneeded/excess steam?


All sound like good ideas but each with there own pro's and con's. I would favour a method that allows a contolled drip of WMO into the combustion zone, and it would be more controllable, and also alot cleaner process, as coating the feedstock with WMO might actually cause the individual feedstock particles to stick together when they reach the combustion zone. As the producer gas combustion process relies on incomplete combustion, the WMO coating might tend to carbon up before being completely consumed causing a bridging problem, but until somone actually builds one as a proof of concept, it all just idle conjecture.

Quote
gasifiers have always interested me, and i would like to see some work with wmo being used in one, most especially in a diesel engine converted to spark ignition.


I just corrected that last statement for you Bob :laugh:


Something else that may be of relevance:
Having had cause to visit Thailand, and in particular the more remote areas, on my last trip I noticed numerous 18 wheeler trucks that had being converted to run on Natural gas (piped over the border from Burma). These trucks were quite modern by Thai standards, and were fitted with numerous high pressure cylinders (akin to oxygen bottles) behind the cab of the tractor unit, and underslung where the diesel fuel tanks used to be sited with as many as 24 bottles being manifolded together on one tractor unit.
The engines (most of which were turbocharged) had being converted to spark ignition, with no trace of the diesel fuel injection system remaining. The CNG equipment was sourced from Brazil of all places, and the opinion was of the owner drivers that I talked to (through an interpreter) was that this conversion gave more power and was cheaper to run than the diesel equivilant. It also extended oil change intervals by a factor of 3 to 4, when compared to the diesel equivilant, possibly because there is no potential for oil dilution, and minimal combustion products being entrained in the oil. Most of these conversions just used a mixer ring arrangement, but more sophisticated systems used sequentional gas injection of the Methane gas into each inlet manifold port.

These engines had no internal modifications (with the exception of the cylinder head injector holes being tapped out for M14 sparkplugs), hence my only concerns if this was tried on a Lister CS long term would be: would the valves and valve seat materials be able to cope with this new fuel for long periods of time, or would valve seat inserts and harder valves be needed to prevent valve seat recession. Also would valve timing events need to be optimised to get the best from this type of fuel. On a final note would a CS operating on this type of fuel require an improved lubricating oil?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 05:36:33 PM by listard-jp2 »

spencer1885

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2011, 06:54:22 PM »
As vaporising WMO at the moment looks like the only option, and as the gas or fuel coming off should be much cleaner than burning WMO in a diesel as it is, I am going to try making a vaporiser.
As in earlier posts I have spoken about my WMO burners and one of those is a vaporising pan burner, I suppose I'm already vaporising oil to a gas every day. ;D
A few times when I have switch it off to change the now full of crap vaporising pan, I have not let it cool down enough and when I  tip in the kero in to the cleaned pan I get lots of smokey vaporised kero.
When at arms length I drop in a match - BOOM!  I'm still here, so building and using a vaporiser is not going to kill me. ;)
As my mate lister-jp2 says a drip feed of oil I think is a good idea.
My vaporising pan heater is very simple and basically is just a frying pan with a metering pump slowly feeding the pan with oil.
To start it, first light with kero and wait until the pan gets hot then switch on the feed pump, it's now self perpetuating.
It's not now burning the oil as such but the vaporised oil above the pan, so if you heated the pan with a heating element (cooker hob) and did not light the vaporised oil  you could then send that vapour to an engine and there you have it! Easy really!!  ;D ;D ;D

Spencer

mobile_bob

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 07:02:42 PM »
are you planning on feeding the oil vapor into a diesel?
that might result in detonation and may not work as you would like it to.

can't hurt to try it though, just keep an ear out for some bad noises, and maybe
some short periodic checks on the big end brg shells to see if they are showing signs of stress.

should be less abrasive though.

alternatively, why not just cool the vapors and condense them to a liquid fuel that you can then inject as diesel fuel?

just kickin around some idea's

bob g
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spencer1885

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2011, 07:34:14 PM »
I thought it might be easier to use a petrol engine, but to start I might just try feeding it in to a couple of different engine types and see what happens.
My parents always used to tell me they knew best! so I am not going to try and reinvent the wheel.
Two parts to this project, firstly build a basic vaporiser, secondly feed vapour into an old petrol engined generator
Wouldn't it be easier to burn the vapour as it is, which possibly might contain water and other contaminants, rather than condensing it with the possibility of producing and storing an unstable fuel?

Spencer

mobile_bob

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 07:58:17 PM »
i had assumed you were intending to fuel a lister diesel, therefore my
question mark

it should work however in a spark ignited engine though, and yes it would be
far better to use the fuel as it is produced, i would think.

as for condensing a diesel like product, cognos suggested mixing in a bit of pump diesel to get the stabilizers needed for the fuel to store well.

perhaps the condensed fuel although reported to be unstable might be stable enough to store for a short while?  maybe one could use the waste heat from the engine to drive the process?  perhaps with a bit of vacuum?

might not be a complete diesel replacement, but might be a significant offset?

never enough time to explore all the possibilities it seems

that is perhaps one of the most interesting factor in the apl/gek gasifier group
they have lots of heads working on a problem, all working with a common approach
and the GEK gasifier.  that would seem to be a very good approach to finding solutions to problems, rather than dozens of folks working on all sorts of approaches with all sort of vaporizors, gasifiers, distillers, treaters and heaven knows what else fueling yet another broad range of engine types and sizes.

i suppose a shotgun approach might turn up something, however its seems much like
trying to beat up the pinna'ta (sp) (that mexican paper mache'te thing kids while blindfolded try to club to get the candy out).

(i really need to work on my spelling)


bob g
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 08:04:06 PM by mobile_bob »
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spencer1885

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Re: vaporised oil
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 08:24:36 PM »
bob,
I would like to use a slow speed diesel ,as if the oil vaporiser was reliable and controllable I see no reason not to run it for 24/7 as I do with my heater/boiler this time of the year.
It would be a CHP system which would possible see me not having to use my heater/boiler any more.
As my inverter also decided to fry it's self just like the last one and my battery banks very old it would mean I could still have power 24/7.
Some thing like my Lister running with an extra oil sump capacity running for months at a time between repairs would be very satisfying.
Any engine running for month at a time all most none stop would be satisfying  ;D
I can get as much oil as I can take and so far this winter I have burnt over 5000 litres of the stinking crap.

Spencer