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Author Topic: Danger engine damage  (Read 47386 times)

spencer1885

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Danger engine damage
« on: January 25, 2011, 08:45:49 PM »
Do not use waste oils of any sort unless it's veg oil.
All lubricating oils have additives and when burnt these additives chemically change and produce a abrasive ash which can wear piston rings and cylinder bores out in as little time as 1500 hours of use.
The additives can not be removed by filtering or distilling or gassing of the oil.
This subject is really one for chemists as is a very complex one and any one with connections with the petrol chemical industry may be able to give a better description of what's going on.

Spencer

buickanddeere

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 04:19:30 AM »
  I keep wondering if water injection would keep the deposits blasted off the injector, piston and ports?

billswan

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2011, 04:23:29 AM »
† I keep wondering if water injection would keep the deposits blasted off the injector, piston and ports?

I might  try it with my 16/1 but someone, cannot remember who said that they had tried a quart an hour and it made the crankcase oil milky. The darn roids run  too cold on the bottom end.

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

mobile_bob

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2011, 06:12:18 AM »
Spencer:

"Do not use waste oils of any sort unless it's veg oil."
        this is a bold statement on your part,
        waste oils of any sort?  oh really?

"All lubricating oils have additives and when burnt these additives chemically change and produce a abrasive ash..."

        yes it is true that lube oils contain additives, however where is it written that
        these additives chemically change to an abrasive ash?


 "which can wear piston rings and cylinder bores out in as little time as 1500 hours of use."

       this might also be true of some oils and some engine's, however it isalso           likely true that there are combinations of oil and engine types that might well do significantly better than 1500hours,  even you reported 2000 hours or 33.3% longer life than your assertion

"The additives can not be removed by filtering or distilling or gassing of the oil."

      Bullcrap!  unless you can produce some documentation of this as fact, i think you are overstating to say the least, filtering by common means might be ineffective, but  distillation/cracking can certainly separate the oil from lighter fractions, gasses, and leave the additive packages behind, and by gassing you mean gasification of the oil in a gasifier, clearly  you don't understand that process.

     however i might be full of crap as well, perhaps you can produce some text supporting your assertions?

"This subject is really one for chemists as is a very complex one and any one with connections with the petrol chemical industry may be able to give a better description of what's going on."

while i agree in concept, i would suggest that this is not the exclusive purview of the chemist, i would suspect anyone that devotes enough time to study might well be able to answer these and other questions of the technical aspects.

i really believe you are over the line on this one, for all sorts of reasons, most of which that have been clearly laid out here and on the MCG forum.

bottom line is this, even if you are 100% correct, in your assertions, how can  you presume to state with any authority what might well be acceptable for some folks under a variety of applications as being bad.

diesel fuel is 3.50 plus a gallon here now, while waste motor oil is something i am swimming in, and from a source that is consistent and as clean as drained from the engine's they came out of, all the same weight, all the same low ash cat/safe tier 4 compliant oil.

how in the hell can you tell me that running 2000 hour on this oil is bad?  when my
engine consumes about 3/4 gallon per hour of run time at full load, it would consume about 1500 gallons in 2000 hours, at a cost of 3.50/gallon = 5250 dollars

for 5250 bucks i can afford a new engine and still have money in my pocket
(actually for what i paid for the s195 i could buy 10 new engines and have enough change left over to buy a night out at a 5 star steak house for the wife and i)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 07:29:03 AM »
Bob you are lucky Spencer is asleep so your post will remail for a short time before he makes a scarstic remark back to you like he did my last one saying their was not enough research to say this horse was dead yet. It's a good thing he was not involved in making the first combustion engine. I wonder how many failures they had before they got it??????? I have heard from 1 member that he was using water injection set up on a timer in a very fine mist that it was working good for him. I also wonder what supplementing propane or natural gas might do to help move the nasties out of the cylinder walls??  BTW I have some BBQ sauce and a little Tabasco if I need it for this post.
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

mobile_bob

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2011, 08:39:38 AM »
i am far from done on this topic, basically on principle if not on the technical
merits.

Spencer has some big shoes to fill if he thinks he is going to like arguing with me.

man i miss GuyFawkes!

boy oh boy, i love to argue

:)

the part that gets my juices flowing is the whole thing about

"its bad because i say so"  really?

that dog just don't hunt!
bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 08:53:37 AM »
ROCK ON BOB!!!!!!!!!! I may not be the smartest person in the world but I know one thing for sure. If I have the money to do something and I want to do it. No Spencer or anyone else is going to stop me from trying and you never know I might come up with a solution that might be of some use. I can't believe I said something like that.  Spencer give others a chance to prove or disprove on there own. Last I knew God was in heaven. Oh BTW your last remark to me was a little plain. You could have put a few more faces in it. DD
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2011, 09:11:34 AM »
Good morning Death and bob,

When you come up with a way of removing the additives then post it so other people can do the same at home safely.
Before you start adding steam or water injection just think what would happen to the dry ash, it would become more affective as a grinding paste a bit like liquid cement.
And finally before you both rubbish my findings and start recommending WMO as a fuel in an engine I think you should both get some experience of it's  long term use before you start adopting the attitude of you know better.

Spencer

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 09:19:14 AM »
ROCK ON BOB!!!!!!!!!! I may not be the smartest person in the world but I know one thing for sure. If I have the money to do something and I want to do it. No Spencer or anyone else is going to stop me from trying and you never know I might come up with a solution that might be of some use. I can't believe I said something like that.† Spencer give others a chance to prove or disprove on there own. Last I knew God was in heaven. Oh BTW your last remark to me was a little plain. You could have put a few more faces in it. DD
                           
 :o

What a stupid thing to say.
A fool and his money, as the saying goes.
So if I told you not to stick your head in an oven you would do it any way.  [ stupid ]
 ::)
Come back and tell me what happens ,I don't hold grudges  ;D

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 09:38:23 AM »
Spencer I know for a fact what sticking my head in the oven would cause. I don't know for a fact that there is not a solution for some of the problems when using WMO. As for a fool and his money. If that were a valid statement no one would ever have a hobby. If that were a valid statement Vegas would still be desert. If that were a valid statement I would not be helping with 2 containers of engines coming from the UK. Which you showed you lack of respect for us YANKS thinking we are not smart enough to know the engines were 50 years old and not new. I don't hold grudges. If you would like to give my fellow Americans some respect and others with ideas on this subject respect we should be able to get along. Mike
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

Bottleveg

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 10:43:04 AM »
I believe the solution is vacuum distillation. This may also produce oil that is suitable to use in the crankcase.
Itís also worth considering .5-micron filtering. I know this wonít remove additives, and Iím not sure these are the problem, but I certainly get a reduction of ash, in my waste oil burner, if I filter finer.
Using wmo as a fuel is too good to reject without further testing.

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 11:18:29 AM »
Spencer I know for a fact what sticking my head in the oven would cause. I don't know for a fact that there is not a solution for some of the problems when using WMO. As for a fool and his money. If that were a valid statement no one would ever have a hobby. If that were a valid statement Vegas would still be desert. If that were a valid statement I would not be helping with 2 containers of engines coming from the UK. Which you showed you lack of respect for us YANKS thinking we are not smart enough to know the engines were 50 years old and not new. I don't hold grudges. If you would like to give my fellow Americans some respect and others with ideas on this subject respect we should be able to get along. Mike


 :o

I did not say people from your country are stupid, I love the USA and have American friends which I respect a lot.
I did say your statement was stupid, so my comments were directed at you and you only.
Don't get too excited  ;D

Spencer

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 11:24:45 AM »
I believe the solution is vacuum distillation. This may also produce oil that is suitable to use in the crankcase.
Itís also worth considering .5-micron filtering. I know this wonít remove additives, and Iím not sure these are the problem, but I certainly get a reduction of ash, in my waste oil burner, if I filter finer.
Using wmo as a fuel is too good to reject without further testing.



What sort of burner do you have? and how much black carbon or white ash or both do you get?
As what you see will help others under stand what's happening to WMO when it's burnt.

Bottleveg

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 11:47:01 AM »
I believe the solution is vacuum distillation. This may also produce oil that is suitable to use in the crankcase.
Itís also worth considering .5-micron filtering. I know this wonít remove additives, and Iím not sure these are the problem, but I certainly get a reduction of ash, in my waste oil burner, if I filter finer.
Using wmo as a fuel is too good to reject without further testing.



What sort of burner do you have? and how much black carbon or white ash or both do you get?
As what you see will help others under stand what's happening to WMO when it's burnt.

I use a Kroll and it needs wmo filtered to 100 micron. It produces white ash and only  black ash/soot when the baffles need cleaning (lack of oxygen flow).
I used to filter the wmo to 100 micron but now go down to 50. I have experimented with 20 micron and each reduction has reduced the ash production.
Ash in the burner box is not a problem, I just vacuum it out every few months, but Iím wondering if .5 micron filtering would greatly reduce the ash problem in engines.
What micron have you been filtering to? Sock filters or cartridge?

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 12:12:20 PM »
I believe the solution is vacuum distillation. This may also produce oil that is suitable to use in the crankcase.
Itís also worth considering .5-micron filtering. I know this wonít remove additives, and Iím not sure these are the problem, but I certainly get a reduction of ash, in my waste oil burner, if I filter finer.
Using wmo as a fuel is too good to reject without further testing.



What sort of burner do you have? and how much black carbon or white ash or both do you get?
As what you see will help others under stand what's happening to WMO when it's burnt.

I use a Kroll and it needs wmo filtered to 100 micron. It produces white ash and only† black ash/soot when the baffles need cleaning (lack of oxygen flow).
I used to filter the wmo to 100 micron but now go down to 50. I have experimented with 20 micron and each reduction has reduced the ash production.
Ash in the burner box is not a problem, I just vacuum it out every few months, but Iím wondering if .5 micron filtering would greatly reduce the ash problem in engines.
What micron have you been filtering to? Sock filters or cartridge?



Now image the ash and carbon that you clean out all going through an engine.
The white ash is the oil additives and you are seeing them every where.
These additives burn and can not be left behind by evaporating as they evaporate with the oil it's self.
It's the white ash that is abrasive and doing the damage, you can not filter out additives.