Author Topic: Wmo  (Read 208026 times)

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #90 on: December 25, 2010, 06:22:55 PM »
Hi Bill,
I’m not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove I’ve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasn’t in the oil from new.
I wouldn’t expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as it’s filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. I’ve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this ‘solid’ that is causing the wear, I’m not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.




I am not sure that its the contaminants in the WMO that could be causing the ring wear, as if the contaminants are that abrasive then the fuel injection system would have failed months before the rings and bore.
The ash which I am guessing is causing the wear is a by product of the combustion of WMO, so I can't see how filtering it more finely before use would make any difference .
The next step on from filtering is going to refining and that's not going to be viable at home on a small scale.
One other thing could be the additive package in the oil is causing the abrasive ash but once again you are not going to remove that or the carbon because it's all sub micron.
I am sure my genuine Lister CS is not doing any better than a Listeroid as abrasive fuel in any engine is going to have the same results.
No amount of crank case vacuum is going to get oil to the top ring,as it just the splash feed of oil that oils the cylinder.
Still no one with long hours of WMO use has replied to this thread which is a bit worrying.

wagspe208

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #91 on: December 25, 2010, 09:27:06 PM »
It seems to me as everyone that has posted with any ideas are replied to in condescending tones by you.
So I am sure you will let all of us know what the problem is.
Or maybe folks just don't want to try and help you with your crappy attitude.
Wags


Bill... PM me and I will tell  you what little I know about Nakisil (sp)
Novo Type "S" 4hp
Lister 8/1
Engine machinist for 20+ years. Glad to help anyone out.

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #92 on: December 25, 2010, 09:54:09 PM »
It seems to me as everyone that has posted with any ideas are replied to in condescending tones by you.
So I am sure you will let all of us know what the problem is.
Or maybe folks just don't want to try and help you with your crappy attitude.
Wags


Bill... PM me and I will tell  you what little I know about Nakisil (sp)

Have you got any thing worth adding to the subject, or are you just full of sh*t.
All I trying to do is get to the bottom of what is causing the wear.
People have posted many times on this forum on the subject of WMO but there does not seem to be many people running a generator on it.
I don't want any more theories on the subject from you, I would just like some one with real life experience of a WMO fuelled generator to post.

Merry Christmas
 :)

wagspe208

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #93 on: December 25, 2010, 10:03:22 PM »
It seems to me as everyone that has posted with any ideas are replied to in condescending tones by you.
So I am sure you will let all of us know what the problem is.
Or maybe folks just don't want to try and help you with your crappy attitude.
Wags


Bill... PM me and I will tell  you what little I know about Nakisil (sp)

Have you got any thing worth adding to the subject, or are you just full of sh*t.
All I trying to do is get to the bottom of what is causing the wear. 
People have posted many times on this forum on the subject of WMO but there does not seem to be many people running a generator on it.
I don't want any more theories on the subject from you, I would just like some one with real life experience of a WMO fuelled generator to post.

Merry Christmas
 :)

Well, I was right about you.
You are not trying to get to the bottom of what is causing the wear as you are not open to any sugggestions. You want to be right and that is fine.
Maybe, just maybe, you have the most hours on a wmo application. Maybe you are going into unchartered ground. Maybe you can provide insight.
There are several solutions to your problem. You will not be open to any of them, though, because your mind is made up. Since you do not want my opinions or theories... ignore them. It is stull fun to piss you off.
Oh, and for your information.. I have more hours in R & D in engines in one week than you will have in a lifetime.
Good luck. I am sure many will be more than willing to jump in and help you. Especially with your open, willing attitude.
Steve Wagner
Novo Type "S" 4hp
Lister 8/1
Engine machinist for 20+ years. Glad to help anyone out.

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #94 on: December 25, 2010, 10:13:52 PM »
It seems to me as everyone that has posted with any ideas are replied to in condescending tones by you.
So I am sure you will let all of us know what the problem is.
Or maybe folks just don't want to try and help you with your crappy attitude.
Wags


Bill... PM me and I will tell  you what little I know about Nakisil (sp)

Have you got any thing worth adding to the subject, or are you just full of sh*t.
All I trying to do is get to the bottom of what is causing the wear. 
People have posted many times on this forum on the subject of WMO but there does not seem to be many people running a generator on it.
I don't want any more theories on the subject from you, I would just like some one with real life experience of a WMO fuelled generator to post.

Merry Christmas
 :)

Well, I was right about you.
You are not trying to get to the bottom of what is causing the wear as you are not open to any sugggestions. You want to be right and that is fine.
Maybe, just maybe, you have the most hours on a wmo application. Maybe you are going into unchartered ground. Maybe you can provide insight.
There are several solutions to your problem. You will not be open to any of them, though, because your mind is made up. Since you do not want my opinions or theories... ignore them. It is stull fun to piss you off.
Oh, and for your information.. I have more hours in R & D in engines in one week than you will have in a lifetime.
Good luck. I am sure many will be more than willing to jump in and help you. Especially with your open, willing attitude.
Steve Wagner

Your not pissing me off, but you would like me to think you have some solutions to my problem with bore wear but we both know your just a key board jockey with no real life experience but just lots of hot air.
You might not like me, but if peoples experiences on various subjects on this forum help other people with there projects then this subject is important to other people not just me.
 

wagspe208

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #95 on: December 25, 2010, 11:10:16 PM »
I don't know you, hence I do not like or dislike you.
I think you are an arrogant ass.... and a fool. I believe this.
You are hard ass conviced your problem is abrasive and unwilling to entertain any other options. Close minded thinking such as this will solve nothing. Maybe is it. Maybe it is not. There are other options.
You are right. I am a keyboard jockey. I know nothing about engines. You are a tool, though. I also know people.
Oh, BTW... race engines also experience bore wear, compression losses, ring issues, etc. I only built them for 20+ years. Please find someone on here with more hours of engine experience logged to solve your problems. I'm still having fun with you. I'd also like to help with your personality problems.
Wags
Novo Type "S" 4hp
Lister 8/1
Engine machinist for 20+ years. Glad to help anyone out.

Bottleveg

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #96 on: December 26, 2010, 01:43:11 AM »
Spencer, One of my great interests in life is problem solving. It gives us all a great opportunity to enrich our lives and move forward.
I have been pondering your responses and low and behold Wags has come to the same conclusion.
Is this the real problem you are trying to solve?
I believe you have raised a very valid point for investigation and it deserves further discussion.
This is a great forum with a wealth of knowledge and you are the only person who has come forward with long-term experience of wmo use.
I would be grateful if you could post more of your findings and look forward to postings from our more knowledgeable members.

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #97 on: December 26, 2010, 02:13:19 AM »
Hi Bill,
I’m not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove I’ve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasn’t in the oil from new.
I wouldn’t expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as it’s filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. I’ve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this ‘solid’ that is causing the wear, I’m not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.


Bottleveg

Above you wrote about pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. Could you please give me some help on that sentence as I am not seeing what you mean ???

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #98 on: December 26, 2010, 09:53:39 AM »
I don't know you, hence I do not like or dislike you.
I think you are an arrogant ass.... and a fool. I believe this.
You are hard ass conviced your problem is abrasive and unwilling to entertain any other options. Close minded thinking such as this will solve nothing. Maybe is it. Maybe it is not. There are other options.
You are right. I am a keyboard jockey. I know nothing about engines. You are a tool, though. I also know people.
Oh, BTW... race engines also experience bore wear, compression losses, ring issues, etc. I only built them for 20+ years. Please find someone on here with more hours of engine experience logged to solve your problems. I'm still having fun with you. I'd also like to help with your personality problems.
Wags


I am not bothered what you think about me and I not interested in you, but you know nothing about the subject so take your attitude and f**k off.
You still have not added any thing useful to this thread.

 

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #99 on: December 26, 2010, 10:15:13 AM »
Spencer, One of my great interests in life is problem solving. It gives us all a great opportunity to enrich our lives and move forward.
I have been pondering your responses and low and behold Wags has come to the same conclusion.
Is this the real problem you are trying to solve?
I believe you have raised a very valid point for investigation and it deserves further discussion.
This is a great forum with a wealth of knowledge and you are the only person who has come forward with long-term experience of wmo use.
I would be grateful if you could post more of your findings and look forward to postings from our more knowledgeable members.


Real life problem is what I am experiencing and I would like to solve it, but so far the boring subject of filtering and other all ready covered points keep being dragged up.
If you or any one thinks I am being arrogant then I am sorry about that ,but if people checked the forum they would see the subject of filtering and so on is already well covered .
As you also have no experience in the subject how is a question like( is this a real problem) of any help.
I have spent a lot of time on trying to solve this problem and I have come to a conclusion, but would like to hear from other people with experience of WMO use and any wear problems before I post it as being the absolute truth.

Bottleveg

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #100 on: December 26, 2010, 10:52:38 AM »
Hi Bill,
I’m not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove I’ve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasn’t in the oil from new.
I wouldn’t expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as it’s filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. I’ve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this ‘solid’ that is causing the wear, I’m not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.


Bottleveg

Above you wrote about pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. Could you please give me some help on that sentence as I am not seeing what you mean ???

Billswan

Hi Bill,
I’m referring to the ‘stalactite’ formation on injector tips. This suggests to me that the high pressure is separating the wmo. The oil has been vaporised and some of the contaminant has ‘dribbled’ out to create this formation.
I have also read other posts about car injector pumps blocking after the use of ‘well filtered’ wmo. The posters describe how blockages have formed on the high-pressure side of the pump. The oil has gone but the contaminants are left to create the blockage.
This suggests to me that finer filtering would be beneficial and begs the question,  could wmo be cleaned using some type of pressure vessel?

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #101 on: December 26, 2010, 11:39:01 AM »
I started this thread on WMO used as a fuel in a generator to get someone else's experiences of using it.
The reason being, which I did not mention at the the start, was my engine has suffered damage from using WMO.
I wanted to see if anyone else had also had problems with ring and bore wear before I mentioned it.
The thread has been high-jacked with the other well documented problems of WMO use,
For instance carbon forming on the injector tip is to do with the fact that WMO is vicsous and clings to surfaces - which is what lubricating oil is designed to do. These things have already been discussed and are pointless if the results I have seen indicate that WMO is not any good as a fuel in a diesel engine.
. ;)

bschwartz

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #102 on: December 26, 2010, 02:57:43 PM »
Rbodell has the most experience of anyone I remember reading about.
Here is his website.  Maybe he could be a usefull source of information for you.
If I recall, he mixes his WMO 50/50 with diesel.

http://rbodell.com/listerpower.aspx
-Brett

1982 300SD, 1995 Suburban 6.5, 1994 F250, R170, Metro 6/ sold :( , Witte CD-12 ..... What else can I run on WVO?

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #103 on: December 26, 2010, 03:29:12 PM »
Rbodell has the most experience of anyone I remember reading about.
Here is his website.  Maybe he could be a usefull source of information for you.
If I recall, he mixes his WMO 50/50 with diesel.

http://rbodell.com/listerpower.aspx

Yes I thought of him but he seems to not be here much anymore. He also runs at low rpms quite the opposite of my engine which is thumping along at 1000 rpm +or-.

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

wagspe208

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #104 on: December 26, 2010, 04:40:48 PM »
Spencer...
Seems you think I have nothing to add. I'll tell you what. You post your engine building resume' and I'll post mine. I know who will win.

You say you used a salvaged cylinder or something like that. I wonder why it was tossed to the side. You are using used crap and have problems and are pissed off about it. You are condemning using wvo based upon your half assed methods. Great idea. I see the educational system over there is as good as the healthcare. Keep up the good work.

Again... maybe you are right. Maybe 100% wmo is a problem. But with your blinders on you will never see any other possibilities.

Oh, and you said I have addded nothing to the thread. Again, your opinion. You have missed a couple of points while being pissy.
Wags
Novo Type "S" 4hp
Lister 8/1
Engine machinist for 20+ years. Glad to help anyone out.