Author Topic: Wmo  (Read 160466 times)

Tijean

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2010, 07:35:02 PM »
Spencer, when you pull the engine down does the space between the top ring to the top of the piston appear to be caked hard full of the ash deposit? Is the top ring groove (behind the ring) also mostly full of it. If it is building up on the piston and in ring grooves and allowing blow by plus becoming an active thrust surface that may be the cause.

That side of the cylinder gets the most direct flame impingement because of where the opening is from the pre combustion chamber and is also the major thrust side of the engine.

Some particular oil fields have soluble heavy metals that make them pure poison to refineries; possible some of the things they put in lubricating oil or contaminates it makes it bad medicine when you burn a steady diet of it.
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

spencer1885

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2010, 07:48:54 PM »
Spencer, when you pull the engine down does the space between the top ring to the top of the piston appear to be caked hard full of the ash deposit? Is the top ring groove (behind the ring) also mostly full of it. If it is building up on the piston and in ring grooves and allowing blow by plus becoming an active thrust surface that may be the cause.

That side of the cylinder gets the most direct flame impingement because of where the opening is from the pre combustion chamber and is also the major thrust side of the engine.

Some particular oil fields have soluble heavy metals that make them pure poison to refineries; possible some of the things they put in lubricating oil or contaminates it makes it bad medicine when you burn a steady diet of it.

When I pulled the engine apart at 1800 hour when the head gasket blow there was no coking or ash on the piston in the rings or any where at all.
It seems the ash is being blown out the exhaust but its wearing the moving parts when its in there.
The engine was very clean ,cleaner than I was expecting.
The thrust sides of the bore had no wear just one place under the exhaust valve.

Tijean

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2010, 08:24:00 PM »
Then you are thinking it is perhaps a "sand blasting" effect? Is there signs of wear showing up on the lower projection of the exhaust valve guide that should show if the abrasive effect is blowing in the wind.
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

Tom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1747
  • Green power is good.
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2010, 08:57:59 PM »
I hear what you're saying on the wear. My question is why it would only wear on a spot in the chrome and not around the whole diameter of the piston. Since I'm running a roid and liners are fairly cheap it doesn't seem like a big deal to replace rings and liner every 5 years or so. I'm seeing a lot more ash from the hydraulic oil than WMO, but the WHO is used up and a nice full drum of WMO awaits.

If you have a liner and it cheap to buy then that's good, but if what seems to be happening to the rings and bore is what's going to keep happening I would have to replace the bore twice in one year and that going to be costly.
We are only talking 1800 hours to wear these parts out and that's not long.
The chrome bore wear is under the exhaust side as that's the hottest and driest part of the bore.
If it's going to take you fives year to wear yours out you can't be using it much ,I use my Lister every day to charge batteries ,about 8 hours a day.

I charge batteries with mine too, it only takes about 200 hours per year to make up for the lack of sun on the PV panels in the winter. On the last order of spare parts the liners were $10 and the ring set put me back a whopping $2.90. 8)
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

spencer1885

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2010, 09:03:55 PM »
I hear what you're saying on the wear. My question is why it would only wear on a spot in the chrome and not around the whole diameter of the piston. Since I'm running a roid and liners are fairly cheap it doesn't seem like a big deal to replace rings and liner every 5 years or so. I'm seeing a lot more ash from the hydraulic oil than WMO, but the WHO is used up and a nice full drum of WMO awaits.

If you have a liner and it cheap to buy then that's good, but if what seems to be happening to the rings and bore is what's going to keep happening I would have to replace the bore twice in one year and that going to be costly.
We are only talking 1800 hours to wear these parts out and that's not long.
The chrome bore wear is under the exhaust side as that's the hottest and driest part of the bore.
If it's going to take you fives year to wear yours out you can't be using it much ,I use my Lister every day to charge batteries ,about 8 hours a day.

I charge batteries with mine too, it only takes about 200 hours per year to make up for the lack of sun on the PV panels in the winter. On the last order of spare parts the liners were $10 and the ring set put me back a whopping $2.90. 8)

Well your sorted then.
My system is generator and batteries only
This set up cost me less than a 1000 but if had solar as a main supply like you it would have cost 15000

spencer1885

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2010, 09:05:19 PM »
Then you are thinking it is perhaps a "sand blasting" effect? Is there signs of wear showing up on the lower projection of the exhaust valve guide that should show if the abrasive effect is blowing in the wind.

I'm thinking more like grinding paste

Tijean

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2010, 10:13:41 PM »
Then you are thinking it is perhaps a "sand blasting" effect? Is there signs of wear showing up on the lower projection of the exhaust valve guide that should show if the abrasive effect is blowing in the wind.

I'm thinking more like grinding paste

I know this borders on insulting, but just askin, is your intake air cleaner of spotless reputation? I have torn down engines that were taken down by running without or damaged air cleaners but the wear was excessive but fairly well distributed so yours seems to have something peculiar to the WMO.
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

spencer1885

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2010, 10:31:19 PM »
Then you are thinking it is perhaps a "sand blasting" effect? Is there signs of wear showing up on the lower projection of the exhaust valve guide that should show if the abrasive effect is blowing in the wind.

I'm thinking more like grinding paste

I know this borders on insulting, but just askin, is your intake air cleaner of spotless reputation? I have torn down engines that were taken down by running without or damaged air cleaners but the wear was excessive but fairly well distributed so yours seems to have something peculiar to the WMO.

Yes it has a air cleaner and is in a dust free shed.
I am sure this extreme wear must be the WMO
This is why I need to speak to other users who have been clocking up high hours using WMO as a full time fuel.
The web site of Old Style Listers said you will wear the rings out using WMO as a fuel but did not say why.
There web site has changed so it no longer has the information, but it did not say any thing about the bore.
But if the rings are going to wear out in less than 1800 hours then you would think the bore would wear also.

billswan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2010, 12:43:50 AM »
Spencer1885

I am sure glad you started this thread just at a time when I am starting to experience the wear you speak of.

How often do your change oil?

I have been working up to 300 hours and will stay there for now. The oil is very thick and black, it starts out as 30w rotella and is total garbage when it is changed out. I was thinking maybe going past 200 hours would make it worse but it doesn't seam to be any worse at 300 hours, thicker or sticker that is.

I hear what you are saying about the ash being abrasive, when the injector is out and the piston is at TDC both valves closed I have used an air hose pointed straight down into the empty injector hole and have been able to blow out quite a bit of ash and carbon debris. The air blower and my hand then look like I have been playing in an ash bin. I will pay more attention next time I do it,I do believe the the stuff on my hand is like you say abrasive.

So if the injector pump and injector are handling it and not wearing out the only explanation is the additives in the oil are the culprits.
I have to wounder if the splash lube for the cylinder walls is not enough for the more abrasive fuel. If a modification to the oiling system increasing cylinder wall oiling would help or just make the engine use oil. Right now my 10/1 uses no oil except for some leaks which are my fault in not sealing studs well enough.
 
Did your engine start to use oil just before you disassembled it?
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2010, 03:47:47 PM »
Spencer1885

I am sure glad you started this thread just at a time when I am starting to experience the wear you speak of.

How often do your change oil?

I have been working up to 300 hours and will stay there for now. The oil is very thick and black, it starts out as 30w rotella and is total garbage when it is changed out. I was thinking maybe going past 200 hours would make it worse but it doesn't seam to be any worse at 300 hours, thicker or sticker that is.

I hear what you are saying about the ash being abrasive, when the injector is out and the piston is at TDC both valves closed I have used an air hose pointed straight down into the empty injector hole and have been able to blow out quite a bit of ash and carbon debris. The air blower and my hand then look like I have been playing in an ash bin. I will pay more attention next time I do it,I do believe the the stuff on my hand is like you say abrasive.

So if the injector pump and injector are handling it and not wearing out the only explanation is the additives in the oil are the culprits.
I have to wounder if the splash lube for the cylinder walls is not enough for the more abrasive fuel. If a modification to the oiling system increasing cylinder wall oiling would help or just make the engine use oil. Right now my 10/1 uses no oil except for some leaks which are my fault in not sealing studs well enough.

Did your engine start to use oil just before you disassembled it?


Have not noticed any difference in the oil in the sump.
I was changing it every 500 hours.
I have not changed the oil at the last 500 hours as I have to top it up every day with about 3/4 of a litre or so ,as its breathing so much and blowing the oil out.
When I pulled it apart when the head gasket blow I did not put new rings in to replace the worn out rings I just stuck in a better set of second hand rings I already had.
This probably is when the oil consumption started to increase as the rings probably did not seal very well on the worn bore.
If when you strip your engine and your bore is good but the rings are worn out then that's good news as a set of rings is cheap but if the bore has worn out then it starts to get pricey.
If I could get a year out of a bore then it would be more viable.
I have got a Lister FR1 which I am going to set up on waste motor oil and see how that runs on it.
I have a spare engine so if the FR1 wears its bore and rings I can use the spare engine for parts and I should get a year out of it that way.
If the WMO is the problem then once I have used up the engines I have I will abandon the project.

billswan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2010, 06:40:51 PM »
Spencer 1885

Her is a pix of the piston in my 10/1 it was taken during the rebuild after buying the Indian motor. The piston only has what ever time on it the Indians run them to prove they run I guess. I never started it and am glad as it was very polluted with sand and machining debris.



Now remember this is a larger bore than a 6/1 and with the higher rpm the piston is aluminum. Now take notice of the rings you will see there are 2 oil rings one with a spiral expander. The engine came to me with a few spare parts like head gasket which was beat up just like the one in the engine and 1 complete set of spare rings. Now interestingly enough the spare ring set has only 1 oil ring and 4 plain compression rings. And quality wise they don't look so great. Make's me wonder what is right?
Like I said my oil control is great but I know the engine is having blow by and lots of it. I do have the blow by routed to the intake which might be fatal if the blow by starts to carry oil back into the intake. But for now those 2 oil rings are doing there job and keeping the oil in the case. This is the only Lister type motor I have experience with although I do own a 16/1 metro which will probably take the place of this motor some day. Is your Lister a 6/1 or other, I see you mentioned a Fr1?
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2010, 06:55:49 PM »
Spencer 1885

Her is a pix of the piston in my 10/1 it was taken during the rebuild after buying the Indian motor. The piston only has what ever time on it the Indians run them to prove they run I guess. I never started it and am glad as it was very polluted with sand and machining debris.



Now remember this is a larger bore than a 6/1 and with the higher rpm the piston is aluminum. Now take notice of the rings you will see there are 2 oil rings one with a spiral expander. The engine came to me with a few spare parts like head gasket which was beat up just like the one in the engine and 1 complete set of spare rings. Now interestingly enough the spare ring set has only 1 oil ring and 4 plain compression rings. And quality wise they don't look so great. Make's me wonder what is right?
Like I said my oil control is great but I know the engine is having blow by and lots of it. I do have the blow by routed to the intake which might be fatal if the blow by starts to carry oil back into the intake. But for now those 2 oil rings are doing there job and keeping the oil in the case. This is the only Lister type motor I have experience with although I do own a 16/1 metro which will probably take the place of this motor some day. Is your Lister a 6/1 or other, I see you mentioned a Fr1?

Its a Lister 6/1 som generator and has a cast iron piston with 5 rings,one of those is a oil ring.
It runs at 650 rpm and I use 15/40 sump oil which I was changing at 500 hours.
I think you will know what's happening when you pull it apart.

The Lister FR1 is the next engine I've got lined up

Tom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1747
  • Green power is good.
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2010, 07:26:46 PM »
Having just cleaned the carbon lump off the injector tip on my engine again. I'm noticing that the temp goes much higher when this happens and that the blow by increases significantly too. Could it be that the carbonized oil under the piston crown, that some people have reported, is caused by this? Could that be feeding through the oil scraper holes on the pistons as it breaks off and wearing the cylinder walls? It is amazing how changing a parameter on an engine can cause a chain effect some times.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

spencer1885

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2010, 07:54:39 PM »
Having just cleaned the carbon lump off the injector tip on my engine again. I'm noticing that the temp goes much higher when this happens and that the blow by increases significantly too. Could it be that the carbonized oil under the piston crown, that some people have reported, is caused by this? Could that be feeding through the oil scraper holes on the pistons as it breaks off and wearing the cylinder walls? It is amazing how changing a parameter on an engine can cause a chain effect some times.

Yes I have noticed the exhaust temp goes up the fuel gets used more quickly and the engine losses power and smokes more.
Once the carbon is cleaned off the injector all is good again.
Adding RUG to the WMO helps stop this happening.
The carbon under the piston is caused by the heat of the piston crown and is cleaned off at Listers 1000 hour decoke service.
I think this carbon is only going to cause problems to the bearings if it drops in to the oil holes.
All these problems I think are normal when using WMO but the real problem is if the rings and bore are going to keep wearing out in the 1800 hours of run time.
So far it seems no one has put the hours on there engine or is not running WMO or is only adding a small amount.
I can't be the only one

billswan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 439
    • View Profile
Re: Wmo
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2010, 10:11:02 PM »
Spencer

I cannot remember but it seams someone popped into this forum and had a twin roid that said he had 17000 hours all on WMO on it and it was for sale. He said it was worn out and he had moved it outside where rain had stuck it. I have searched but I don't seam to find the post. does anyone here remember reading about it. The post wasn't to long ago and did generate some comment. I may have this site mixed up with the Micro chp site. It would be good to find this guy and see if the post of 17000 is right or if it was 1700 just cannot remember. Tried searching the other site but no luck.............

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?