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Author Topic: Wmo  (Read 126534 times)

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2010, 01:17:05 PM »
Spencer1885

You wrote "maintenance is high." Well you got that right.

My experience is with a 10/1 roid being run to generate heat in a large shop, 4050 square feet. I use as much waste motor + waste hydraulic oil as possible.

I do have some old number 2 diesel that I thin with but the supply of it is limited so I run about 85% used oil.

I generate the oil as a farmer and a small repair shop + i buy some + some is given to me to just get rid of it.

One guy just gave me 500 gallons and then the next guy made me pay .05Cents per quart for about 500 gallons he actually owed me money so it was more a barter deal for implement rent.

As far as maintenance the roid does carbon up the pre cup and injector tip pretty quickly, I find on 85 % wmo I am thinking of just swapping injectors daily as the roid is now running mostly 24 hours a day. I seems the carbon builds up on the injector tip and it will break loose and fall into the piston area and boy does that cause about 5 seconds of KNOCKING that when heard the first time makes you think all is lost. But it does clear and then a few hours later KNOCK their it goes again makes me wounder what the top of the aluminum piston looks like. So far no bent valves or other problems from the abuse of the waste fuel. Although I am experiencing poor starting, not much of a problem when running 24 X 7 but some one on this forum wrote to let your engine tell you when to de carbon I believe my engine is begging as I am thinking the rings may be getting carboned up and the compression is lacking because of it. Or the injector nozzle is weakening, I do have 2 new nozzles in my possession but I am waiting for a friend to bring by a nozzle crack test devise so that I can compare the pressure of the 2 new ones and the old one that has about 1100 hours on it.

Well enough for now it is time for my 10/1's morning valve lube job. Running one of these for heat reminds me of having to tend a wood stove........

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2010, 02:21:41 PM »
Spencer, what problems are you getting from using wmo?
Iíve been using Ĺ micron filtered wmo in my Lister, but not long term. The only thing I find, so far and in this cold weather, is the engine will turn over for longer before firing.
Have you tried hydraulic fluid? I think this maybe a better option due to lower contamination.
Iíve been using wmo to power my c/heating boiler for the past three years and no problems.
Another option for those who are after wmo is vehicle dismantlers. In the UK vehicles have to be evacuated of all fluids before they go to the metal recyclers, this includes the fuel tanks so would provide a good thinning agent.

Starting is not a problem as I have been shunting it down on diesel.
Some times or most of the times its late at night and I can't be bothered to wait for the diesel to purge the system fully but it still starts ok.
The temperature to day is minus 10 degrees.
I have also being using wmo for heating as you so you must be used to seeing the white ash that's produced.
I have used hydraulic oil but not as a sole fuel for long enough so I can't tell if there would be less problems.
I think its the long term where the real problems are.

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2010, 02:25:47 PM »
I'm still setting up my system.
After I went through my Listeroid, I use diesel just to kind of break in the engine.
Been some sort of WMO from then on.
Filtering and PH are big issues.
New centrifuge is on it's way, filters to 1 micron.
I know guys that run WMO in trucks, haven't need to change the fuel filter in a year, after centrifuge cleaning.
Soon I will be running my shop, with the Listeroid and a Outback FLEXware 1000.
I generate a lot of used oil, trucks, tractors, etc. and have sources for more.
How many hours has the engine run on wmo with at least 75% wmo or more?

Filtering and ph are not a problem.
You don't need a centrifuge to filter,
Tipping in wmo to fuel tanks on trucks is a different thing to running a generator on wmo.
The percentage of wmo to diesel in the trucks is very low.
If you put wmo in a generator you are going to be running it on a very high percentage of wmo or else its not worth doing.
The filtering and ph of the oil is not the issue.


Some sort of WMO = All I have run in the Lister is 100 % WMO, hydraulic, trans, vacuum pump oil,† etc. after break in.
The guys running it in trucks are running more that tipping in WMO.
I'm thick as a brick, guess I'm not sure what your asking?
I run the Lister evertime I'm out there, almost everyday, lights, small air compressors, 110 volt welder, 3/4 hp water pump, furnace, etc.
Been running from June of 09.


Bottleveg

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2010, 02:50:55 PM »
Hi Spencer, yes I get the white ash in the bottom of the burner. If I get smoke from the top of my stack then itís time to vacuum. My burner will cope with minus 100 micron so I filter to 50. Just tip through a nylon filter sock. The lower I go the less ash I get. Long term settling helps.
 Could water injection be a replacement for de-carboning? Iíve heard good results for curing ring gumming on wvo cars.

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2010, 02:57:27 PM »
Spencer1885

You wrote "maintenance is high." Well you got that right.

My experience is with a 10/1 roid being run to generate heat in a large shop, 4050 square feet. I use as much waste motor + waste hydraulic oil as possible.

I do have some old number 2 diesel that I thin with but the supply of it is limited so I run about 85% used oil.

I generate the oil as a farmer and a small repair shop + i buy some + some is given to me to just get rid of it.

One guy just gave me 500 gallons and then the next guy made me pay .05Cents per quart for about 500 gallons he actually owed me money so it was more a barter deal for implement rent.

As far as maintenance the roid does carbon up the pre cup and injector tip pretty quickly, I find on 85 % wmo I am thinking of just swapping injectors daily as the roid is now running mostly 24 hours a day. I seems the carbon builds up on the injector tip and it will break loose and fall into the piston area and boy does that cause about 5 seconds of KNOCKING that when heard the first time makes you think all is lost. But it does clear and then a few hours later KNOCK their it goes again makes me wounder what the top of the aluminum piston looks like. So far no bent valves or other problems from the abuse of the waste fuel. Although I am experiencing poor starting, not much of a problem when running 24 X 7 but some one on this forum wrote to let your engine tell you when to de carbon I believe my engine is begging as I am thinking the rings may be getting carboned up and the compression is lacking because of it. Or the injector nozzle is weakening, I do have 2 new nozzles in my possession but I am waiting for a friend to bring by a nozzle crack test devise so that I can compare the pressure of the 2 new ones and the old one that has about 1100 hours on it.

Well enough for now it is time for my 10/1's morning valve lube job. Running one of these for heat reminds me of having to tend a wood stove........

Billswan

I found using Rug to thin the wmo helped a lot as far as reducing the coke on the injector.
As you say a lump of carbon breaks off and the engine sounds like its going to smash, but always clears.
I stripped my Lister down when the head gasket blow at about 1800 hours of being run on wmo.
 Before that I fitted a new piston and rings and a good second hand barrel
So it was all good at the start of the 1800 hours
What I found when I stripped it at the 1800 hours was a very clean engine with no carbon or not more than a engine run on diesel.
The piston was clean, the rings and also the head and ports.

What I did find was the rings where worn out and the bore on the exhaust side had worn through the chrome.
The rings being worn out I was not surprised as I had read on the web site of Old style Listers that running wmo would wear them out but no explanation why.
The bore I am not sure if that's just bad luck, I just did not know.
 
I have a waste oil burner and that produces lots of white ash and the Lister makes some white ash also so I am wondering if this white ash is wearing the rings and bore away.
This wear is happening to a point of being a problem as the engine hours increase.
If this is in fact is what's happening then you will not notice any problems until the engine gets to about 1800 hours or so.
This is why I want to speak to other long tern wmo users.

Spencer

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2010, 07:28:11 PM »
Spencer

Well you wrote "This wear is happening to a point of being a problem as the engine hours increase.
If this is in fact is what's happening then you will not notice any problems until the engine gets to about 1800 hours or so."

My 10/1 is at just short of 1200 hours 95% of it on WMO and at 24 X 7 operation and continued cold weather that makes me get to 1800 hours in about 25 days at soonest. So we will see. If all goes well and no failures that is my plan to keep thumping along and using up some of my backlog of wmo.

It is my guess that the bore and rings are failing as it does not seem to have the compression it used to have. May be 300 hours on an oil change is just way to much. When I do change oil I have a 3 inch ring magnet on the side of the bottom of the deepest sump and it is always pretty thick with wear particles. So may be the bore is going away.........

I wounder if there are any better quality sleeve's and rings for a 10/1. The stuff in my omega branded 10/1 seemed to be all bottom of the barrel. No chrome sleeve's here :D :D

Now back to tend the wood stove or I mean clean the Injector as the 10/1 is starting to send up smoke signals ::) ::)

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2010, 07:55:55 PM »
Spencer

Well you wrote "This wear is happening to a point of being a problem as the engine hours increase.
If this is in fact is what's happening then you will not notice any problems until the engine gets to about 1800 hours or so."

My 10/1 is at just short of 1200 hours 95% of it on WMO and at 24 X 7 operation and continued cold weather that makes me get to 1800 hours in about 25 days at soonest. So we will see. If all goes well and no failures that is my plan to keep thumping along and using up some of my backlog of wmo.

It is my guess that the bore and rings are failing as it does not seem to have the compression it used to have. May be 300 hours on an oil change is just way to much. When I do change oil I have a 3 inch ring magnet on the side of the bottom of the deepest sump and it is always pretty thick with wear particles. So may be the bore is going away.........

I wounder if there are any better quality sleeve's and rings for a 10/1. The stuff in my omega branded 10/1 seemed to be all bottom of the barrel. No chrome sleeve's here :D :D

Now back to tend the wood stove or I mean clean the Injector as the 10/1 is starting to send up smoke signals ::) ::)

Billswan

If you could post your findings when you take the engine apart that would be very helpful.
I am not sure what your saying about your oil change time at 300 hours because if this ring and bore damage is going on then its the WMO that's burnt in the cylinder that makes the ash which is wearing the parts out and nothing to do with the oil in the sump.
My Lister has 2400 hours on it so its still going but it does sound noisy from the top end and is breathing a lot.
If only the rings wear out then that's no big deal, but if the bore is going to keep wearing out in 1800 hours then that a different
 story.
 spencer

Tom

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2010, 12:37:26 AM »
I'm shocked at how easy it was to find WMO. Since I'm a volunteer firefighter, I asked the chief what they do with the oil when it's changed in the engines. I figured that might be some good relativity low mileage clean oil. In the course of the conversation one of the other volunteers who's dad owns a couple of trucks heard that I was looking for WMO and he delivered a drum of used delo 400 that is claimed to be clean drain oil with no other contaminants mixed in. I was heading out to crack into the drum today and filter some, I use a 10 micron house hold string filter, but the rain returned with a vengeance.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

buickanddeere

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2010, 03:24:08 AM »
Spencer1885

You wrote "maintenance is high." Well you got that right.



As far as maintenance the roid does carbon up the pre cup and injector tip pretty quickly, I find on 85 % wmo I am thinking of just swapping injectors daily as the roid is now running mostly 24 hours a day. I seems the carbon builds up on the injector tip and it will break loose and fall into the piston area and boy does that cause about 5 seconds of KNOCKING that when heard the first time makes you think all is lost. But it does clear and then a few hours later KNOCK their it goes again makes me wounder what the top of the aluminum piston looks like. So far no bent valves or other problems from the abuse of the waste fuel. Although I am experiencing poor starting, not much of a problem when running 24 X 7 but some one on this forum wrote to let your engine tell you when to de carbon I believe my engine is begging as I am thinking the rings may be getting carboned up and the compression is lacking because of it. Or the injector nozzle is weakening, I do have 2 new nozzles in my possession but I am waiting for a friend to bring by a nozzle crack test devise so that I can compare the pressure of the 2 new ones and the old one that has about 1100 hours on it.




 Can you rig something to heat the line between the injection pump and the injector?

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2010, 01:40:04 PM »
Spencer1885

You wrote "maintenance is high." Well you got that right.



As far as maintenance the roid does carbon up the pre cup and injector tip pretty quickly, I find on 85 % wmo I am thinking of just swapping injectors daily as the roid is now running mostly 24 hours a day. I seems the carbon builds up on the injector tip and it will break loose and fall into the piston area and boy does that cause about 5 seconds of KNOCKING that when heard the first time makes you think all is lost. But it does clear and then a few hours later KNOCK their it goes again makes me wounder what the top of the aluminum piston looks like. So far no bent valves or other problems from the abuse of the waste fuel. Although I am experiencing poor starting, not much of a problem when running 24 X 7 but some one on this forum wrote to let your engine tell you when to de carbon I believe my engine is begging as I am thinking the rings may be getting carboned up and the compression is lacking because of it. Or the injector nozzle is weakening, I do have 2 new nozzles in my possession but I am waiting for a friend to bring by a nozzle crack test devise so that I can compare the pressure of the 2 new ones and the old one that has about 1100 hours on it.




 Can you rig something to heat the line between the injection pump and the injector?

When I originally started down this road towards a roid on wmo a injector line heater was one of the things that I was going to incorporate into the mix of accessories.

I did get the WMO filter and line to the injector pump heated but never went any farther. The first few hundred hours were ran on %'s of blends more like 50 / 50 so with that kind of fuel I believe any one here with any experience would agree it is not necessary to heat that. But then after going to these higher %'s like 85% and 100% well here we are with carbon problems. Does a hot injector line relieve coking the tip and the chamber?? It seamed reading on this forum I was lead to believe it might just be a waste of time? But if someone here could tell me it worked for them then by all means I would try it.

It would seam to me the last 2.5 inches of injector are deep in the head and it would seam that the oil in the tip would be at the temp of the head or so it seams to me. When starting I always start on diesel and bring motor to full operating temp before switching to oil. And about 5 minutes at shutdown to clear the pump and injector. You learn real fast to not shut down on oil of any type, a failure once caused me to have to and the following restart was challenging with only a hand crank.
Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2010, 05:07:10 PM »
The point is it does not matter how clean the WMO is or how clean you filter it or if you heat the injector or if you thin the WMO what I am saying is that burning WMO makes a fine white ash and its the ash that is abrasive and is wearing the rings and bore out.
If this is the case then it means using WMO as a fuel in a diesel is not viable.
Does any one see what I am saying.

Tijean

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2010, 05:24:26 PM »
Spencer, is there any evidence of excess wear in the hp injection system or is only in parts exposed to the combustion gasses?
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2010, 05:56:25 PM »
Spencer, is there any evidence of excess wear in the hp injection system or is only in parts exposed to the combustion gasses?

The fuel injection system is not having any problems with WMO ,there is no wear or damage .
The WMO is only wearing the cylinder and rings because when the oil is burnt up in the cylinder it produces the ash which I think is abrasive .

Tom

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2010, 06:25:57 PM »
I hear what you're saying on the wear. My question is why it would only wear on a spot in the chrome and not around the whole diameter of the piston. Since I'm running a roid and liners are fairly cheap it doesn't seem like a big deal to replace rings and liner every 5 years or so. I'm seeing a lot more ash from the hydraulic oil than WMO, but the WHO is used up and a nice full drum of WMO awaits.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2010, 06:39:51 PM »
I hear what you're saying on the wear. My question is why it would only wear on a spot in the chrome and not around the whole diameter of the piston. Since I'm running a roid and liners are fairly cheap it doesn't seem like a big deal to replace rings and liner every 5 years or so. I'm seeing a lot more ash from the hydraulic oil than WMO, but the WHO is used up and a nice full drum of WMO awaits.

If you have a liner and it cheap to buy then that's good, but if what seems to be happening to the rings and bore is what's going to keep happening I would have to replace the bore twice in one year and that going to be costly.
We are only talking 1800 hours to wear these parts out and that's not long.
The chrome bore wear is under the exhaust side as that's the hottest and driest part of the bore.
If it's going to take you fives year to wear yours out you can't be using it much ,I use my Lister every day to charge batteries ,about 8 hours a day.