Oil change interval

[Tom]

It'll be breaking in for around 250 hours and in all that time there will be metal coming off the cylinder walls and rings. I still get that fuzz/slime on the magnets too. Yes it is wet! You should see the poor pig's pen. I almost lost my boots the last time in there. Stay safe my friend.

[Gippslander]

Been reading this topic .  Pump or no pump  

Not sure what this means ?  My Jkson 6?1 has a simple oil pump , it runs off the cam lobe - all it does is supply oil to the TRB crank bearings .

Do some people use external oil pumps ?  

[38ac]

 RE; TRB Jackson with an oil pump
The original set up was a two sump systems were the pump drew from the lower sump to supply the bushing type main bearings and the oil then went to the upper sump where the dipper worked to oil the rest of the engine.  When India simplified the single cylinder engine to  one sump and tapered roller main bearings there was no need for the oil pump and it was largely dispensed with over there.  Metro was one imported line that had no oil pump and I have seen others. Some importers demanded an oil pump and India said yessir and slapped an OEM type pump on the engines but in reality they are doing nothing as long as the oil level is such that the rod dipper is working.  I suspect that if an engine with a pump was run low on oil that some of the oil being pumped to the mains would find its way down the crank throws to the rod bearing but I have not been curious enough to try it?  Yes  external pumps have been added in various ways,  mainly to provide a way to filter the oil.  Myself, I would go with the Indian simplification in its entirety leaving simple alone. or better yet go with a two sump bushing main engine as per OEM.

[dieselgman]

A two sump system as per original Dursley design is tried and true. They used a simple cam lobe driven plunger pump to lift oil from the lower sump into small troughs above the level of the crankshaft that would then gravity feed the main bushings and run down into the upper sump where the dipper would do its job of supplying splash lube to the rest of the engine parts. The lower (relatively undisturbed) sump was pretty effective at allowing sludge and particles to settle out of the lube oil of the day that did not have detergent and dispersant additives. With modern oils, I suspect that some of this simple functionality has been altered... but I am still a believer in the original designs with two oil sumps and simple pumps.

dieselgman

[Gippslander]

Ok Interesting , the sumps and the Indian changes .

Reading George Utterpowers CD , he writes ,  it is best to use straight 30w oil in these engines , but he doesn't say to use detergent of non detergent oil . He also suggests using a zinc additive to the oil around the head cups and external parts - but not for the crankcase oil .

[dieselgman]

The straight 30wt. IS the Non-Detergent variety.

I am unsure of the real history and sequence on the Indian sump and main bearing changes, but we have always pushed for a close match with the original Lister designs and tried to avoid most of the modifications. Parts compatibility is one reason that the changes might not be a very good idea. Serviceability under potentially adverse future scenarios is better served by complete standardization within the field.

dieselgman

[38ac]

Oil will cause big discussion no matter if on the Lister forum or on the ferrari forum. Fact is we are dealing with a very easy application for motor oil lubricating properties. Tougher is dealing with contamination due to cool oil temps and no filtration which by the way does not change from brand A SAE 15-40 detergent to brand B SAE 30 Non. The decision is do you want to drain the contamination out when you change oil? Or dig it out of the sump with a putty knife and rags?
I have a very late Bamfords Z2 in the shop right now and on the spec plate it says Shell Rotella. Also happen to have same exact engine only  40 years older out in the shed. Tag  says 30 weight non additive oil,,, Hmmmm.? You rekon there has been some progress in oils since 1930? Somebody said use your brain power to remember diligent changes and you will be rewarded many times over worrying about which oil is going to magically give you superior engine life and I concur. 

Zinc is very important in high pressure applications usually connected with lifters and camshafts. If you are inclined to worry about zinc first go out and remove the rocker cover from your Listeroid and take the heal of your hand and push down on either valve. Now take your own guess as to what it took to push it down and consider that Zinc and other high pressure additives were developed and are real important in flat tappet engines with valve SEAT pressures approaching 250 Lbs. and full lift pressures of 500 Lbs or more and being operated by lifters 2/3 the size of the mushroom head lifter in your Listeroid. Two different worlds, two different needs that just don't cross over. Add zinc if you wish, it hurts nothing but neither is it going to do you any good.

Gary, My oil sump/pump info has been gathered from many sources some of it Indian which means the prudent suspect it's authenticity.    As you know the industry started out as parts to keep the real deal running after the Brits were tossed out of India and progressed to complete engines then the modified/simplified engines we know as Listeroids.

 I like the Dursley  built product and Indian clones myself. I am  not a big fan of TRBs and single sump oiling by splash. That being said a Metro splash only 'roid is doing diligent duty at the daughter's place keeping the lights on.

[Quinnf]

Non-detergent 30 wt. is getting hard to find.  I've seen 20 wt. non-detergent sold as air compressor oil at WalMart.*  Some larger auto suppliers stock non detergent oils for use in vintage automobiles.  Amazon.com sells it, but their product description reads as follows:


Blended from premium base stocks with additives which provide wear and oxidation inhibition

Recommended for manual transmissions and gear boxes which do not require an extreme pressure gear lubricant

Good lubricants for general purpose use and for some hydraulic systems

Can be used in selected older engines where the manufacturer recommends API SB or MM oils

Valvoline non-detergent motor oil SAE 30 does not meet the performance requirements of any modern engines


http://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-VV265-6PK-SAE-Non-Detergent-Motor/dp/B00DJ4FKAO


Quinn

* I don't shop there, I just go in from time to time to see if Larry the Cable Guy is right about the kind of people who do!

[38ac]

Quinn

* I don't shop there, I just go in from time to time to see if Larry the Cable Guy is right about the kind of people who do!

I just sit in the car when the wife goes to that place and watch the people coming and going,,Especially the first of the month. As far as I can tell its the same as watching Larry the cable guy except you can also get the smell affect when the wind is right,,,,,
To keep this on topic get your non-Det oil at TSC. Cheaper and you  don't have to decontaminate after leaving. 

[Quinnf]

You're right about the first of the month thing.     If I were in school studying psychology or nutrition, or even business, a great senior project would be to  . . .  but I digress . . . 

TSC, too, has a brand of catalyzed tractor paint that brushes on smooth, dries hard and leaves a finish like porcelain.  I used it to repaint my 1963 South Bend Heavy 10 lathe.  I think the previous owner used house paint on the poor thing.  Were I repainting a 'roid I'd definitely use it. 

Regarding oil, there's a real dilemma.  Traditionalists say that old engines were designed to use the simple lube oils of the day.  The double sump arrangement of the traditional Lister/Listeroid allows dirt to settle there, but only if you use non-detergent oil.  However there are many advantages to the use of modern multi-visc./detergent oils.  Good luck hand cranking a cold engine on a cold morning using 30 wt.!  And the viscosifiers that were added to oils to cause them to thicken when mechanical shear is removed, thereby keeping oil in the bearings while the engine is stopped are well worth having.  I'm sure the engine designers in days of yore would have made use of modern oils, had they been available.  However, if you use a modern oil, you really should have some sort of filter, even if it's Jack Belk's terrycloth rag wired to the inside of the crankcase door. 

I've never seen a really good arrangement for pumping oil on one of these engines.  I have two engines, an Ashwamegh 6/1 with the single sump, and thus only splash lubricated (Old Silver in my avatar).  The second is a Jkson, the Beta Test kit engine from George/Joel which has the double sump.  When I tore down and rebuilt that engine to document the process for George/Joel, I didn't trust the supplied oil pump to hold up, so I left it off when I reassembled that engine.  Besides, the supplied oil pump was missing a spring behind the ball in the check valve, so I figured I'd just keep the oil level above the lip of the upper sump and call it good.  George wisely said "If it's not part of the design, it can't fail."  For my money, reliability trumps authenticity.  I use 10-40 Rotella in my engine and hope for the best. 

[Tom]

Hey Quinn, I used that TSC paint on my 1927 South Bend heavy 9 in black to replace the original Japaning. it came out beautiful!

[Hugh Conway]

My$.02 re: straight 30 wt vs a multi-grade detergent type.

I've using the straight 30 in my JKSON with upper and lower sump for a couple of years. Winter hand cranking is indeed a bitch with thick oil, and even in warmer weather or longer runs, the oil never really gets very warm.  Engine internals do seem a bit sludgy on oil changes and sump clean-out. Many modern small gas engines have no filters and use detergent oil, so........we have to take into account they generally have a much shorter design life than a Lister though. My Dursley Lister was a muck mess inside, I assume it used straight 30 all its life.  An add-on oil filter kit is on the way from SEP for the JKSON daily driver. I am changing over to a multi-grade detergent in the interest of both easier cranking and cleaner internals.

Quinn, you mentioned eliminating the oil pump from your dual sump JKSON.
 "I tore down and rebuilt that engine to document the process for George/Joel, I didn't trust the supplied oil pump to hold up, so I left it off when I reassembled that engine.  Besides, the supplied oil pump was missing a spring behind the ball in the check valve, so I figured I'd just keep the oil level above the lip of the upper sump and call it good." 
I would be concerned that the dipper would soon splash a significant amount of oil out of the upper sump and into the lower, reducing the amount of splash, maybe fatally.
Seems most all of the oil would end up in the lower sump if the oil pump were eliminated. Not a problem with the single sump Metros, but perhaps eventual bad news with a double sump engine if not monitored frequently.
On the sleeve main type crankshafts, the oil pump dumps into small pockets that empty directly into the main bearings, and overflow into the upper sump.
oil here would be more critical than with TRB  equipped engines.
So, IMHO........oil pump=good, modern oil with addition of filter, also good. As Quinn said, "reliability trumps authenticity". I rely on my engine every day that the sun does not shine (frequently here on the coast).
Cheers,
Hugh

[BruceM]

The last winter I still hand cranked my 6/1, I tried some 5-40 synthetic. That was a huge improvement over 15W40 for hand cranking.  After subzero nights, I had to unbelt both the air compressor and the ST-3 to start, I didn't have the strength for the drag of cold oil/grease in their bearings in addition to the cold engine.

Jack Beck's hardware cloth supported terrycloth bypass filter under the big door was a good one but stealing his idea and making a holey bottomed steel box to hold some depth filter media below the big door wasn't much of a project either.  I use old cotton socks and underwear for media now but when I started I used Bounty paper towels so I could inspect for crud.  It did catch a significant amount of crud and helped me to find casting sand under the piston crown.

Record number of cloudy. overcast and foggy days this Dec. here in Concho, AZ.  My 6/1 is pumping 1500 watts into my battery bank as I write this.  An inaudible generator/compressor is a wonderful thing.  My new solar hot water system for home heating is desperate for sun, switched back to propane a couple days ago. 

[Tom]

My Lister is thumping away right now too. It's putting out 3kw (hey that's what it's rated for right) and heating the house.

[Quinnf]

Hi Hugh,

I neglected to state that I determined the proper level by running the engine up to temperature, then quickly pulling the access plate and noting the height of the oil.  You have to overfill the engine a about 1/4 - 1/2 inch over the lip of the sump to ensure the upper sump stays full.  Then I filed a mark on the dip stick that corresponded to that level.  Then I thought about it a bit and removed the non-functioning oil pump and capped the holes in the crankcase.  If I ever decide to run that engine (it's crated now) I'll probably spend some time working on the oil pump to make sure it does what its name implies.