Lister and gen "frames" or "mounts"

[xyzer]

Balance...
OK, some of the issue seems to be balance, or imbalance. Why don't we just balance the engines. I come from race engine world. Balance is not rocket science. It seem as one of these pieces can be ripped apart in a mater of hours. So.... why not?
Wags

The twins would be much easier to do than singles due to crankshaft design.

Here are 2 balanced Listeroids....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOxPXGn6BWo

 If I had a third to do it would be a lot eaiser! If I were going to permanatly mount one I would still balance it so the average slab will handle it. I learned a lot about balancing a single and discussed with a few twin owners the problems that still exists with them. The singles or twins with a cast iron piston can only be improved but they will never be a Honda. My first try was static and the second was dynamic. If done dissasembled it can be done staticly but you have to do each flywheel seperatly. It can also be done trial and error with a good starting arm and clay. AKA trial and error. I can tell you the secret is in the % used and the race boys will miss it by a mile! I know from experience!   

[cgwymp]

I can tell you the secret is in the % used and the race boys will miss it by a mile! I know from experience!   

Care to share the secret? ;-)

[xyzer]

I can tell you the secret is in the % used and the race boys will miss it by a mile! I know from experience!   

Care to share the secret? ;-)

67-68% will calm a hopper and at above that point it will begin to transform into a slider. If I were doing it by the numbers I would balance to 65% and tune it with clay/wheel weights. I used to think it was 65% but they both needed tweaking with more weight. If you static balance it dissembled you need to use half your bob weight and do each flywheel individually. You can't do it as an assembly.. . If you do it dynamically it can be done as an assembly. Mosts singles appear to use 55% and I believe the Listeroids are in that area. As the % is increased the ground pounding will fade.     

[wagspe208]

Guys, do not think I am discounting your information. I believe you, hence the questions. I will go buy some heavy "I" beam for the main rails (this will also make it easy to make a slide mount to adjust belt tension on the gen), and a couple of cross pieces to tie it together. Now, how about mounting the beams to railroad ties perpendicular to the main rails. Then bolt that to the concrete with some rubber in between. Will the wood act to dampen some vibrations, or just magnify the problems?



Balance... I know this thing will never be "smooth" as compared to race stuff. It has to be able to be improved upon, though. So, you think the 67 to 68% is where its at? (100% rotating, 67 to 68% reciprocating I assume you mean, or are we on different pages with the weiights?)

Thanks
Wags

[wagspe208]

BTW, those balanced pieces are smooth as a babys ass!
Wags

[xyzer]

BTW, those balanced pieces are smooth as a babys ass!
Wags

Wags,
The best I could get still has 1/4" of movement on a resielent mount. The first video I was shaking as bad as the machines. This shows a little better what movement is left.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QmWXNo-Gmg&feature=channel


 Yes on 65%ish reciprocating. If I was doing it again I would build a frame so I could contain it then add clay to the inside of the wheel rim until I was satisfied then check it with a load. You will learn from its reaction which side needs the adjustment. A piece of chalk on the rim of the wheel will help in the location of the weight. You will learn that the chalk mark is not at the heavy spot do to the reaction time of the imbalance. After that I would weigh my clay and replace it with the stick on wheel weights on the inside of the rim. Then bolt it to your concrete base or whatever you have. ......... somthing like that

[wagspe208]

Well, here is my decision... help me if I am screwed up..
1) Buy a PM gen head
2) Build a frame sufficient to last (I hope)
3) Run this thing for a while.

IF the engine runs good... hell, don't fix it if it ain't broke. IF it is down on power, then I will rip it apart and fix as needed. IF it shakes like a dog crapping peach seeds, I will rip it apart and balance. The only way to know how to proceed is to run it as it is intended to be used.

I have questions for guys doing this already..
1) Cooling system... Is a thermal cycling (whatever it is called) really sufficient? Or is a radiator/ fan/ pump a better way to go? I am alll about simple if the tank/ hose thing really works.
2) Thermostat... Necessary? Does it work with the tank system?
3) Gen drive setup. The engine has a double v-belt pulley on the shaft already. It is about 10" I guess. Any reason not to use this and size the pulley for the generator accordingly?
4) IF this works ok is it possible/ wise/ foolish to take exhaust heat (via water tube surrounding pipe) to heat a room? Should be easy to fab, small pump, radiator/ fan.

Thanks for the help guys.
Wags

[Tom]

The setup I'm using for cooling is a 40 gal hot water tank with the top cut off. These tanks already have the feed through for 1"npt which makes setup easy, just make a stand or mount to the wall. The water heater was free from the dumps. It is setup with a 180 deg thermostat which works quite well. During a long hard run, >3 hours at full load, the tank will boil. However I'm just about setup for cogen that will pump the hot water through 2-300' pex tubes in the basement slab which should be able to absorb the heat from a run and re-radiate it back into the house for a day or 2.

[wagspe208]

So, it seems as a 40 gallon tank is not enough capaity for an 8/1 for extended run times (8+ hours at a time)? Or is it a small boil and engine temp is still ok to go.
Wags

[Tom]

Mine has boiled hard enough that water starts splashing out of the tank. The engine shed is pretty air tight and it gets over 100 f inside. I am running a steady 3125 watt load charging batteries for a good part of the time. I think the answer to your question is how much of a load and what ambient temps do you expect. Since there is almost no freezing issue and I hope to also make distilled water for the batteries some day this solution works for me.

[toydiesel01]

Wags 10 inch pully --what speed are you planning on running the gen? or engin?
if you go to small on the gen,I would think you would have a lot of belt slippage because of less surface area and a tight bend--an over tight belt or belts will cause the belts to fail and a lot of stress on other parts =example bearings.  Even going around the fly wheel to I think 8 inch pully,  I start to see a little slippage when drawing about 70 amps, so I am thinking about adding a idelor pully close to the gen head to give me  more surface area around my gen pully.  This could be used as an adjustment place also

[wagspe208]

I am looking at an 1800 rpm gen. The pulley is 12" od. If the pulley is to small... I will scrap it. I see many guys have belts around the flywheel itself. Do guys just machine the grooves in the flywheel?
Thanks
Wags