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Author Topic: How should I drive my next oilseed press?  (Read 5501 times)

rgroves

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How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« on: May 03, 2006, 08:17:02 PM »
I am revising the way i drive my oilseed press, and I'd like some suggestions from you guys.

You can see how I've been doing it at my website, www.flinthillsdiesel.com.

It was a very basic, down and dirty setup intended to get the press up and running in a hurry.  So I just direct coupled a Changfa 195 to the press by a commonback B belt. 
It worked, it made oil, and it was not at all ideal.  Obviously this sort of mechanical connection should have a slip clutch, an idler, or some other way to de-couple load from power. But I also don't like the noise and would prefer all those moving engine parts to be farther away when I'm working with the press.  Since i sell this stuff, I'd like to mount the press on a trailer and drive it with a remote power source  -- taking it to farm shows and the like, and talking to onlookers about what I'm doing.

So I'm considering two possibilities -- an electric motor, or a hydraulic one.
In either case, I'd prefer to drive the next press with a diesel engine. 

Running a press requires the ability to vary the speed of the motive power source to dial in optimum pressing conditions for the seed.  If I use an AC motor, I will have to add a motor controller to the setup.  In that case I would use a genset to make the power and this really becomes an electrical issue.  And if I was in a setting where grid power was available, I could run the press more or less silently.

But a hydraulic pump, driven by an engine and driving a hydraulic motor, would let me vary the speed with a control valve.  The engine and pump could be mounted on my pickup, and the press would be driven through hoses.  Those hoses could also connect to a tractor hydraulic system, making the press more of a farm implement.  As such, it might be better targeted to a farm audience and that's who buys oilseed presses.

I suspect the electrical option would be more efficient in terms of work done for fuel burned. But I really don't know how efficient a hydraulic system would be in moving  power around. How lossy would a pump to motor setup be relative to a genset?  (I know direct coupled would be the most efficient, but as described above I have compelling reasons not to do that)

That's all.  Looking forward to your ideas.

Thank you.

Russell Groves


A country boy can survive - Hank Williams Jr.

GuyFawkes

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Re: How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2006, 11:19:46 PM »
hydraulics will work, but I suspect that since you are asking questions about it, you don't know how to do it, so it is likely to cost you bucks...

if you go the hydraulic route get a gear pump and gear motor, and with sufficient extra filtration you could do a quickfit unpluggable system for the motor side driving the press.

but

if you go electric 100 feet of heavy duty extension lead is a LOT LOT LOT cheaper than 100 feet of 3/8" R1 hose and 100 feet of 1/2" R0 hose, you have no idea how much cheaper, easily enough to build a soundproofed trailer for a lister.

and you could do the same job with DC, but 70 to 100 volt DC stuff can kill you a LOT easier than AC, with DC you get a 50/50 chance of being stuck to or thrown off the current, stuck to even if it doesn't kill, it does cook, literally....
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rgroves

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Re: How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2006, 01:18:03 AM »
hydraulics will work, but I suspect that since you are asking questions about it, you don't know how to do it, so it is likely to cost you bucks...

if you go the hydraulic route get a gear pump and gear motor, and with sufficient extra filtration you could do a quickfit unpluggable system for the motor side driving the press.

but

if you go electric 100 feet of heavy duty extension lead is a LOT LOT LOT cheaper than 100 feet of 3/8" R1 hose and 100 feet of 1/2" R0 hose, you have no idea how much cheaper, easily enough to build a soundproofed trailer for a lister.

and you could do the same job with DC, but 70 to 100 volt DC stuff can kill you a LOT easier than AC, with DC you get a 50/50 chance of being stuck to or thrown off the current, stuck to even if it doesn't kill, it does cook, literally....

No I don't know dick about hydraulics, that's why I posted what I did.  But learning about it would be interesting.

Regarding DC voltage.  Some years ago I converted a Dodge Dakota pickup to electric.  144 VDC, 400A controller, half ton of batteries.  And yes I managed to get zapped, just in passing, and it HURT LIKE HELL! and left a nasty burn.  DC is easy to control speed, but the controllers aren't cheap.  AC motor controllers aren't cheap either.  Still I spose you're right, the genset route probably makes the most sense.

Russell
A country boy can survive - Hank Williams Jr.

GuyFawkes

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Re: How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2006, 02:41:19 AM »

No I don't know dick about hydraulics, that's why I posted what I did.  But learning about it would be interesting.

you could start here
http://home.wxs.nl/~brink494/index_e.html
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rgroves

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Re: How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2006, 03:48:09 AM »

No I don't know dick about hydraulics, that's why I posted what I did.  But learning about it would be interesting.

you could start here
http://home.wxs.nl/~brink494/index_e.html

Homework, cool, thank you!

rg
A country boy can survive - Hank Williams Jr.

Joe

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Re: How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2006, 01:32:42 PM »
There is no question in my mind that hydraulic are the best way to go.
It may not be the ultimate is power efficiency but as far as ease of building, availability of parts, simple and reliable ...a lot like the thinking behind a Lister. 
In a previous life I built hydraulic power units and a variety of hydraulic construction tools, many used at a distance from the power source….how about an 18hp, electric start, concrete cutting chain saw that you could hold in one hand…it had to be remote from the power source so the engine did not ingest the fine dust the saw was generating.
All the parts you need to drive a seed press are available at a surplus store or even Northern Tool. In fact, if you look at a Northern Tool catalog you’ll see a hydraulic driven concrete cutting chain saw…that is one of my babies…. I built the first prototype for that saw in 1989. Because of the environment the tools were used in everything could be run on 20wt motor oil as a fluid…(possibly seed press oil for hydraulic oil in a non-severe low-pressure system?)
Farmers know hydraulics… the seed press could be run off a tractor/skid steer.
For demo use you could hook hydraulics to your truck engine and hoses back to the trailer.
The Lister could power a log splitter…etc….
A conventional log splitter could power a seed press…the circuit need not be any more complicated than that.
Hydraulics allows you to run a demo in the rain.
Hydraulics allows you to slowly reverse and unjam…think of the auger on a post hole digger with that ability….
The possibilities are endless…


Joe



Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

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GuyFawkes

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Re: How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2006, 02:46:52 PM »
There is no question in my mind that hydraulic are the best way to go.

I agree, but "the best" means it is the most expensive solution to build, once built, different story...

AT _some_ point I intend to add a compressor and hydraulic pumps to my start-o-matic, that way I have mobile "any flavour you want" power, but I know hydraulics so it doesn't post the same challenges it does to a "virgin"

1/ ATF (automatic transmission fluid" is a very very good substitute for proper hydraulic oil, I personally would not under ANY circumstances except a life threatening emergency attempt to use any other kind of fluid.

2/ Hydraulics has to be SPOTLESSLY clean, a good hydraulic filter won't even pass water molecules, so ANYTHING you can see or feel is orders of magnitude bigger than any acceptable size of contaminants

3/ Hydraulics always always needs some sort of cooling / reservoir, and this has to be easy to fill and drain.

4/ lots of hydraulics have "case drain" so you're involved in three hoses, not just two.

5/ Hydraulics is like steam, full torque at 0.01 RPM, so spec your motor and pump wrong and you can tear your seed press to pieces (cos someone dropped a 5/16 bolt in there) at 1 RPM no worries, if you want to control torque you end up using things like pressure dump valves, and they are not cheap.

6/ Hydraulics takes the path of least resistance, so any circuit more complex that one pump + one motor direct coupled is starting to get into the realms of either using two matched pumps, or a bank of pumps (dowty type pumps just stack up) or something called a gear splitter, which is just as expensive as a pump.

7/ Hydraulics are NOT an incompressible fluid, there ain't no such animal, fluids compress 1% by volume per 100 bar, roughly, so if you have 50 feet of hose between the valve and actuator you have potential for delays and that means feedback loops***

8/ Hydraulics are potentially incredibly dangerous, either because of the power in a ram, or forgetting about the power stored in an accumulator, or because of the weight of machinery moved (crack the lines and that backhoe arm settles on YOUR arms with several hundred pounds of weight and lots of mechanical advantage)

***
We used to do a lot with yacht/ship stabilisers, there are basically extra rudders amidships, when the boat is under way, if the wave motion tends the boat to lean to the left, the stabilisers turn these rudders so the passing water produces a force the drives the bottom of the hull towards the lean, keeping the hull upright and vertical.

These rudders are actuated by a pair of rams, hyrdaulic power comes from a pump / accumulator / filter / tank set up driven off the main engines, and control is by a box of gyroscopes on the bridge producing two sets of square waves, the more offset, the more actuation and rudder angle, operating a series of solenoid valves, feedback from ram position was a potentiometer (vospers use to sell these at 70 odd UK pounds each, they were RS pots, cost all of a dollar each)

The whole circuit was timed to prevent feedback and allow for compression of the hydraulic oil in the lines, which would be many many feet long.

Mess with that timing, like when the 50 cent rubber tube that connected the potentiometer shaft to the top of the stabiliser shaft started to perish and introduce an extra bit of "play" not hard wired into the compensation system, and they could pulse so hard the whole hull would feel like it was tearing itself apart.

The moral of this story is -  even an expensive and well designed hydraulic setup can still look and sound like shit and make you look like a fool, if some 50 cent component is not up to spec, and if YOU don't know hydraulic, you will pay someone like me, and I used to love hydraulic work as it was the most expensive hourly rate we used to charge out, even if that hourly rate was used to detect and diagnose and replace a 50 cent item......

-------------------

There is another story here.

Guy has a Moody 40' sailing yacht, centre cockpit, they were OK if you like floating caravans, engine was a BNC thornycroft 1.5 diesel 4 cylinder with DPA pump, can't remember the gearbox now, prolly PRM or hurth, anyway it was 20 years ago, so he asks me for a quote to replace the leaking core plug, I believe yanks call them freeze plugs or block plugs, the little dishes of steel you hammer into blocks, her is a picture of one under the guys finger


so I quoted him, and this is twenty plus years ago, 3000 bucks

he just about shit himself, before blowing up at me and calling me a crook etc.

as a result, I didn't have the chance to explain.

a/ the leaking plug was right behind the injection pump.

b/ to remove the injection pump you had to remove the timing chain cover on the front and undo a bolt, it wasn't a slide in on a master spline job.

c/ to remove the timing cover you had to remove the two pulleys driving ancilliaries

d/ to remove the pulleys you had to split the drivetrain and move the engine so it could be rotated, as the pulleys were so close to the bulkhead you could only get a new belt in with a blunt punch.

e/ to move the engine you had to life the cockpit sole

f/ to life the cockpit sole you had to disconnect the steering and control binnacle mounted in the cockpit sole

so, a 20 minute job that should have cost 50 cents in parts ended up as a 3000 buck job that wasn't done, because it was too expensive, until one day the core plug went completely and then the whole boat had to be craned out and re-engined because he siezed it solid, so the boat was craned out, placed on the hard, and a for sale sign went up on it.

Now, Moody were responsible for that fuck up, a god awful piece of design, because all they cared about was maximising internal cabin volume, which meant minimising engine bay volume.

-----------------------

so the moral of these stories are this.

whenever you decide to modify something, think like a submarine designed, make bloody certain than every last piece can be removed and repaired, without you having to disturb any adjascent components or readjust or realign anything else, and never ever ever let any one design consideration (such as cabin space, which sells a boat) over rule good engineering practice (such as engine access, which can kill your customer and his family)

whether matey uses hydraulics or flat belts or electric, ac or dc, if there is a distance between the power pack (lister) and the work (seed press) then lots of bad things can happen if you are stood at one unit, and someone walks up to the other unit and starts fiddling

uh-oh, we just came up against one of those scenarios where the old style genuine lister vee belts which will always stall in overload make sense, as do old style flat belts, if you go electric or hydraulic then you need to build in a safety dvice that does the same stall in overload thing, and design it so the ONLY way it transmits power is when it is working, and EVERY mode of failure is guaranteed to stop, totally, ALL power transmission, 100% of the time.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Firebrick

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Re: How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2006, 03:14:52 PM »
How about jack shafting and flat belts?  Less parasitic loses from converting to electricity/hydraulic, and back to mechanical again.  Plus you could run many other implements/tools off it as well.  May or may not be ideal with your set up.

Andre Blanchard

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Re: How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2006, 04:19:10 PM »
<< snip >>
so the moral of these stories are this.

whenever you decide to modify something, think like a submarine designed, make bloody certain than every last piece can be removed and repaired, without you having to disturb any adjascent components or readjust or realign anything else, and never ever ever let any one design consideration (such as cabin space, which sells a boat) over rule good engineering practice (such as engine access, which can kill your customer and his family)

A sub may not be the "best" analogy here.  Major repairs like changing reactor cores involves cutting open the hull and welding it back when done.:)

Personally I think for this application I would look for two of the smaller size aircraft generators that are floating around the surplus market.  Put a rheostat in the shunt field circuit of each one like when they are wired up for use as a welder.  The rheostat on the one used as a generator will adjust the voltage and the rheostat on the one used as a motor will adjust how fast it runs on that voltage.  And if you connect a 24 volt battery pack to the generator one will make an awesome starter for the engine, the batteries are then charged from the generator.  For this you would put what is known as a BAD (big ass diode) between the generator and the battery to prevent the generator from back driving the engine when you do not want it to.  Starting is then done with a big switch that shorts out the diode.  You will also want fuses, ammeters, a volt meter, and switches where needed in the circuit.
If you make the battery pack large enough and use deep cycle batteries you could run the press from the batteries, engine off for short runs (time depends on size of pack) without the engine running.
_____________
Andre' B.

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Andre' B

kpgv

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Re: How should I drive my next oilseed press?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2006, 04:40:26 PM »
Hi Russell,
I am thinking it might be worth considering experimenting with driving a press with the stuff already on the back of a small tractor.
There is a choice between the live hydraulics (plug in hoses), or the PTO shaft (540 RPM, and some have 1000 RPM too).
Seems that farmers will be the people most interested in these, and they already have the tractor.
Also, one could make a frame mount to go on the 3 point hitch and the press could be somewhat portable...


Kevin