Author Topic: Climate Warming a hoax?  (Read 200497 times)


Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #361 on: February 06, 2010, 03:30:42 PM »
Be careful what you wish for.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqkWnnPjzv0



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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #362 on: February 06, 2010, 04:32:45 PM »
It's interesting that globally, January 2010 was the warmest month in recorded history.  Haven't seen the data yet but that's what the reports are so far.
Stan

mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #363 on: February 06, 2010, 05:34:00 PM »
recorded history only goes back some one hundred years, as i recall?

certainly was a warmer january here in western washington, and i am thankful for it.

bob g
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billswan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #364 on: February 06, 2010, 06:43:37 PM »
Well NOT HERE in southern Minnesota it has been one snow storm after another and have had LOTS of 0 and below 0 F. weather :( :(

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #365 on: February 06, 2010, 08:15:36 PM »
That's the whole problem trying to convince people that what we are screwing up our world.

What's the story of the blind men who were trying to get a picture of an elephant by describing the part they were touching?  One, who had hold of it's trunk said it feels like a huge snake.  The other with his hands on it's leg said no it looks like a big tree trunk.  etc. etc. etc.....

Someone on here once said that we couldn't possibly be affecting the immense atmosphere of the world with our itty bitty engines, and coal fired generating plants.

 I always showed my students some of the first pictures from the space shuttle of the horizon from space.  It shows the blue of the atmosphere as a tiny shimmering line on the horizon, hardly thicker than a piece of printer paper in thickness relative to the earth's size.

I relate it to the Lister engine.  It's made of of several systems.  The fuel system being one of them.  If you shave a minute amount off of the fuel pump plunger, maybe a microgram of metal compared to the 400 Kilograms that the whole machine weighs, what happens to the performance of the engine???

Sometimes it doesn't take very much to screw up a finely tuned machine, no matter how big it is.
Stan

t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #366 on: February 08, 2010, 03:35:26 AM »
Well this is an interresting read in the Toronto Sun today... talks about the issues going on around the world that the North American Press is not reporting... because they are embarrassed that they have been shrills and not reporters...

==============

One of the most common questions I get from readers these days is why are the Canadian media ignoring the growing global controversy over the credibility of climate change research and in particular, of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)?

For example, unless you read the international press, especially the mainstream U.K. newspapers such as The Times, Telegraph and Guardian, you probably haven’t heard much about any of the following controversies in recent days.

(1) John Sauven, director of Greenpeace U.K., until now one of the strongest allies of IPCC Chairman Rajendra Pachauri, has called for Pachauri’s resignation, saying his judgment is flawed and a new IPCC chairman — the most important climate change job in the world — is needed to restore public confidence in climatic science.

(2) That the reason for this is increasing controversy over the credibility of the IPCC and Pachauri himself, related to the contents of its last major report released in 2007, including, but by no means limited to, a bogus claim Himalayan glaciers would disappear by 2035 — as iconic an image of the potential consequences of man-made global warming in Europe and Asia, as was the (inaccurate) one of polar bears stranded, starving and drowning on melting ice floes in North America. Worse, when the Indian government pointed out the glacier prediction was nonsense, Pachauri accused it of peddling “voodoo science,” before being forced to admit the IPCC was wrong and had ignored repeated warnings it was wrong.

(3) In the wake of Climategate, the U.K.’s Information Commissioner’s Office concluded officials at the world-famous Climatic Research Unit of the University of East Anglia — the most prominent academic institution on which the IPCC relies for its science on man-made global warming — broke the law when they refused requests for their raw data under the Freedom of Information Act. They can’t be prosecuted due to a technicality — the complaint occurred more than six months after the violations.

(4) What had been billed as “gold standard,” “robust” and “peer reviewed” scientific research in the IPCC’s 2007 report, released to massive media publicity at the time, has recently been revealed to have relied, in some cases, upon such things as an article in a mountain-climbing magazine, a student dissertation using anecdotal evidence from mountain guides, and the unvetted claims of environmental groups.

(5) The U.K. government’s chief scientific advisor, John Beddington, has acknowledged some climate scientists exaggerated the impact of global warming and called for more honesty in explaining to the public the inherent uncertainties of predictions based on computer climate models, adding: “I don’t think it’s healthy to dismiss proper skepticism.”

(6) China’s senior climate official, Xie Zhenua, has called for “an open attitude” towards “the alternative view” to man-made global warming. That is, that climate change is mainly “caused by cyclical trends in nature itself.” Considering no global climate deal is possible without China — the world’s top greenhouse gas emitter — Xie’s statement that these views should be incorporated into the next major IPCC report in 2014, has huge implications for the future of climate science.

I’ve chosen half-a-dozen examples above of controversies now engulfing the IPCC and climate research. I could have mentioned others about the now-disputed basis for IPCC claims regarding the impact of global warming on the Amazon rain forest, hurricanes and floods, and new questions about the reliability of weather station data used to make some IPCC claims.

Plus, there’s a growing public perception the IPCC has abandoned its proper role as a dispassionate presenter of scientific research to policy makers, to become just another environmental group preaching warmist hysteria.

None of this disproves anthropogenic global warming, or proves mankind’s influence on climate is a scientific hoax. But it illustrates the absurdity of the radical warmists’ claim the debate is over, the science is settled and we must all immediately take a vow of poverty to “save the planet.”

Why have Canadian media largely ignored this growing controversy? Perhaps the best answer is embarrassment. Having shilled for warmist hysteria for so long, having dismissed any questioning of man-made climate change orthodoxy as equivalent to Holocaust denial, they don’t know how to climb down, or cope with the tidal wave (pardon the pun) of controversy now hitting climate science all over the world.

Thus they remain paralyzed, desperately, frantically, pretending no controversy exists.

Except it does. And it’s growing.

lorrie.goldstein@sunmedia.ca
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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #367 on: February 08, 2010, 04:02:17 AM »
Andrew.. You've been listening to those people again.  Here's how Lorrie Goldstein is being described in the press, and probably just as legitimately as the Toronto Star article.  You see, I have quit trying to research the legitimate data first, because first I to a bit of research on the writer.  It's often easier to obtain, and much more entertaining than wading through raw data.

Headline..."Lorrie Goldstein Lies Again".   "I was getting all set to debunk the latest lies from rightwing hack Lorrie Goldstein when I discovered Deltoid had already done the hard work by debunking another rightwing hack’s screed. Since Goldstein’s column is nothing more than an excercise in intellectual plagiarism, Tim Lambert’s post, with a few alterations, works for it too."

It seems Lorrie has plagerised a work written by a right wing hack sometime in the past, just changing a few words to match the more modern circumstances.  I didn't look any further into it, because of the reputation of the writer.  Now maybe I'm wrong, maybe Lorrie Goldstein isn't a right wing hack that plagerizes other right wing hacks work, but it's enough to stop any further need for investigation on my part.

Now don't get me wrong!  I believe there are significant problems in the IPCC and certainly many of their big wigs should be fired.  That, however doesn't detract one whit from my central argument that neither you nor I should be listening to anything said on the subject of global warming unless it is said by reputable, trained, experienced scientists published in peer reviewed journals.  (which is NOT the Toronto Sun by the way)

Stan

t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #368 on: February 08, 2010, 04:40:53 AM »
Now don't get me wrong!  I believe there are significant problems in the IPCC and certainly many of their big wigs should be fired.  That, however doesn't detract one whit from my central argument that neither you nor I should be listening to anything said on the subject of global warming unless it is said by reputable, trained, experienced scientists published in peer reviewed journals.  (which is NOT the Toronto Sun by the way)

Stan

Stan, Goldstein is nationally respected writer/columnist who has been honoured by his fellow journalists.  I did a CANOE and Google search on your headline, all I found was a leftwing blog site.

In this article, he just put out the facts that in the international media stuff is happening... and in Canada you dont hear anything about it.  As he points out, many who have been PEER reviewed got it from student papers and mount hiking guides... not really science is it.

There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #369 on: February 08, 2010, 04:48:46 AM »
Stan:

your use of the term "right wing hack" is getting old...

as hard as a try, i do a pretty good job of not referring to those that support your position as "left wing lunatics"

is there no opposing view that you would accept as valid?

bob g
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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #370 on: February 08, 2010, 03:39:19 PM »
Gentlemen, let me advise you on some primary examples of how to recognize sensationalism in reporting.  Consider the two examples recently quoted, one in reply #357 from the canadian scientist and the other #366 by our friend Mr. Goldstein.

The subject is "sensationalist, emotionally laden vocabulary".  Now the reason for inserting sensationalist, emotionally laden vocabulary is to grab the attention of the general public, which aids in increasing sales of the publication.  Any time you see this type of vocabulary, think "right/left wing hack exaggerating/lying and obscuring facts".  Not what we want in a scientific debate, right?

There is one example of this type of vocabulary in #357 and it is the word "dramatic".

In comparison here is paragraph #2 from reply #366 as reported.

(2) That the reason for this is increasing controversy over the credibility of the IPCC and Pachauri himself, related to the contents of its last major report released in 2007, including, but by no means limited to, a bogus claim Himalayan glaciers would disappear by 2035 — as iconic an image of the potential consequences of man-made global warming in Europe and Asia, as was the (inaccurate) one of polar bears stranded, starving and drowning on melting ice floes in North America. Worse, when the Indian government pointed out the glacier prediction was nonsense, Pachauri accused it of peddling “voodoo science,” before being forced to admit the IPCC was wrong and had ignored repeated warnings it was wrong.

I've put the emotionally laden, sensationalist vocabulary in italics to assist you in identifying it.

I repeat, any time you see emotionally laden, sensationalist wording in a publication, IGNORE THAT PUBLICATION, because it has no scientific value.  It's only value is in attracting the general public who have a limited knowledge about the subject, and increasing sales of the newspaper/magazine etc. etc..

It's like a 5 year old that comes running in to Grampa yelling, "Grampa there's a huge black spider on the porch and it's eating up all the cats and dogs on the block, come quick and see".  Well, you'd go and see because he's your grandson, but you wouldn't put much credence in the sensational language would you?

I hope I've been of some help in this matter.
Stan
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 03:59:10 PM by Stan »

mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #371 on: February 08, 2010, 06:12:03 PM »
Stan:

oh yes, i understand ....

it like the use of the term

"right wing hacks"

or my use of

"Stan, the problem i have with you"  (which i got called to task for, but which is not derogatory by nature)

this is a classic move used by both sides, and if you are critical enough, you will spot the same coming from
the left wing lunatics as well

actually some of the scientific reporting while not using the word dramatic per se, will use a more palatable
word that pretty much means the same thing, and is viewed as so by the scientific community.

:)

bogus claim, should have been "unsubstantiated claim"

the balance of your examples could be repackaged in scientific terms that basically mean the same, and it is fair to note
that had it not been for those that packaged the original reports, made the film clips not used each of these examples perhaps
there would have been no need for such verbiage to start with?

those that oppose AGW were not the one putting out films of polar bears, from an interesting camera angle, showing them floating
on drift ice, captured after they come out of hybernation, when they look half starved, and not showing that the drift ice is within
an easy swim back to the main ice pack, where after they cut off the film the polar bear and its baby manage to swim to easily,

i mean for the love of god man!  wake up and realize that while your side may have a few good points, it also has some serious snake
oil salesman in the pack.

and yes that was sensationalized i realize, but is it really?
or is it an accurate description of a number of the so called scientists that go on about AGW?

bob g
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #372 on: February 08, 2010, 07:40:18 PM »
Stan
So if it is reported using plain english to describe how members of the Warmist side mislead, miss-communicated, subverted the peer review process and deliberately and knowingly distorted facts, you are suggesting that we ignore it??  But if the so called scientists claim the glaciers are melting, that polar bears and thin and living on Ice flows, that the Rainforest is shrinking, that ... well you get the picture, we must believe that be cause it has been through a broken peer review process?

Stan, nobody is saying climate does not change.  It does, it has and it will.  Its the extent to which they claim its mankind fault and show inflammatory pictures and reports to back that up that has people skeptical

Now if we ever get back to something like polution that will have some true effect on our daily living, well till them its the Climate Change fiasco
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #373 on: February 08, 2010, 11:30:27 PM »
Bob....I fully understand in any group of humans, there will be "snake oil salesmen" as you call them.  My point has always been that when true science, reported in peer reviewed journals is considered, the weight of evidence for global warming caused my man's activities is overwhelming.

The few snake oil salesmen are insignificant when considered alongside the thousands of hard working, non-aligned scientists that have been collecting data for decades.

I figure you have used an apt term to describe virturally every publication you and Andrew have pointed my toward.  Just remember "if it sells advertising, don't believe it".
Stan

mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #374 on: February 09, 2010, 01:18:23 AM »
Stan:

i got your recommended book in the mail today, and here are a few preliminary impressions

i first looked at his reference section, to see where all his charts and graphs came from

51% come for previous works or published papers of this author, that raises a bit of suspicion in my books.

(i am not about to go out a buy all his previous works to find out where he got the info that he brought forward into this book)

the term "adapted from" also presents a problem for anyone that is critical in thought.

why adapt? why not bring forward a reference in its entirety or explain how it was interpreted or adapted?

James White, Science: " if you are not familiar with Ruddimans hyphothesis, you should be..." 
(taken from the back cover of the book, apparently placed there by the publisher as a critique of the book, which clearly places this
work in its proper context,,, that being "hypothesis, and not up to the standards of theory, or law)

chapter 18 is interesting, where the author admits the problematic nature of the global warming issue, where true scientist often take
both positions, such as "on the one hand" and "on the other hand"...

this book lacks serious scientific convention in my opinion, it is not well documented, no citations, and for the most part an interesting read
however it lacks just about everything i have come to accept in a scientific or engineering text.

the authors careful use of wording also is problematic, and he is artful in his choice of and placement of words,  many of his assertions would never
stand up to legal or scientific scrutiny without much more documentation that presented in this book.

perhaps this book was not meant to be one for a researcher or fellow scientist, but rather the casual reader a step above pulp fiction?

in fairness i will now take the time to read carefully what this author has to say, i will also take notes so as to follow his assertions and see if he provides documentation to back them up.

when he provides only 37 sources to cite from and 19 are earlier works of his own, i don't expect much solid supporting documentation, but rather just another book following a similar cookie cutter approach to this subject that was used in algores "inconvenient truth"

so yes i am skeptical, but i am not yet ready to use the pages as toilet paper,, just yet.

i will say however Stan, as passionate as you are on the subject of AGW, i would have expected you to put forth something a bunch more substantive than this book.

maybe there is some nugget buried in its pages that will provide irrefutable evidence of AGW? 

we shall see.

bob g
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