Author Topic: Climate Warming a hoax?  (Read 200288 times)

mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #255 on: January 28, 2010, 06:26:46 PM »
ok Stan

you got algore, we go inhofe

one cancels the other out quite nicely in my opinion,, however

we still have the emails, we still have the ipcc falling apart and a myriad of other issues surrounding this hoax

the science is "fiction" at this point, because it cannot be replicated, at best it is a hypothesis and does not even rise
to theory at this point.

even as a hypothesis it is so full of holes as to be very difficult to defend, and once you unplug the billions of dollars from
the equation you will see a mass exodus away from it by its supporters as they run behind the next chicken little looking for
the next low hanging tit to suckle from.

bob g
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #256 on: January 28, 2010, 06:30:01 PM »
The end of the cold war dried up a lot of science funding. Unethical scientists saw the way forward thanks to hacks like Hansen. Radical environmentalists were the useful fools of climate scientists and progressive policy makers seeking an avenue to initiate social engineering with tacit approval
From what I remember of the times, a lot of this climate change fear, uncertainty, and doubt really got started about the time Reagan was threatening to cut the budgets for things like NOAA and other agencies. Right after that, it was like the grant-whores started worrying about justifying their existence, and all this scare stuff started coming out. One of the first things was the "Ozone hole", and you can see now where they're starting to reverse themselves and acknowledge that the "hole" is a natural phenomena that has nothing to do with CFCs.
Despite all the information you may have read, there is not one shred of supportable evidence that CFCs have found their way 40 miles up above the Earth. No one has ever found any up there because they are roughly five times heavier than air. They are like a brick in a swimming pool. It is not often that you will see a brick floating to the surface of your pool. CFCs are so dense that even as a gas you could fill a bucket with it and pour the contents of one bucket into another. Secondly there is no evidence that they can destroy anything because they are very stable and unreactive substances. Most dictionaries and chemistry books describe them as inert gases.

The other interesting confluence was that the original patents on R-12 were running out, at about the same time they banned it. Convenient, no? A coincidence that they had the new refrigerants waiting in the wings? Hmmmm...

Hate to say it, but after a lifetime of watching reversed studies and botched science, I no longer trust a damn thing I see coming out of the labs, on general principle. How many times have they reversed themselves on the efficacy of the various foods and other substances? It's like you can get whatever result you like, depending on what you pay for.

Latest one? BPA. The Europeans have just decided that it's not really a threat; what did we do? "OMG!!! The sky is falling!!! Ban BPA!! For the children™!!!"

NASA FY2008 actual budget expenditures, aeronautics: $511M
NASA FY2008 actual budget expenditures, earth sciences: $1,237M

NASA FY2012 budget request, aeronautics: $521M
NASA FY2012 budget request, earth sciences $1,550M

Notice that the space part and flying is much less that the study of earth sciences (AKA Global Warming)  Thats a lot of money

If you're willing to make the necessary data adjustments to match the hockey stick, its a lucrative business to be in.
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #257 on: January 28, 2010, 06:47:38 PM »
Now the Telegraph’s James Delingpole reports that another key claim by the IPCC also comes from non-peer-reviewed work by scientists operating out of their field of work:

Here’s the latest development, courtesy of Dr Richard North – and it’s a cracker. It seems that, not content with having lied to us about shrinking glaciers, increasing hurricanes, and rising sea levels, the IPCC’s latest assessment report also told us a complete load of porkies about the danger posed by climate change to the Amazon rainforest.

This is to be found in Chapter 13 of the Working Group II report, the same part of the IPCC fourth assessment report in which the “Glaciergate” claims are made. There, is the startling claim that:
“Up to 40%of theAmazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation; this means that the tropical vegetation, hydrology and climate system in South America could change very rapidly to another steady state, not necessarily producing gradual changes between the current and the future situation (Rowell and Moore, 2000). It is more probable that forests will be replaced by ecosystems that have more resistance to multiple stresses caused by temperature increase, droughts and fires, such as tropical savannas.”
At first sight, the reference looks kosher enough but, following it through, one sees:
Rowell, A. and P.F. Moore, 2000: Global Review of Forest Fires. WWF/IUCN,
Gland, Switzerland, 66 pp. http://www.iucn.org/themes/fcp/publications
/files/global_review_forest_fires.pdf.

This, then appears to be another WWF report, carried out in conjunction with the IUCN – The International Union for Conservation of Nature.
The WWF is not a university or research center. It is the World Wildlife Fund, an environmentalist advocacy group, one best known here for having an agency that produced and distributed (without the WWF’s permission) an ad that used 9/11 as a way to accuse people of committing terrorism against the planet. Dr. Rowell works on policy analysis, not research. PF Moore isn’t a scientist at all; he’s a “green activist” and a reporter for the Guardian newspaper. And not only is this work not peer-reviewed and not conducted by environmental scientists in a normal research model, Dr. North can’t even find the claim that 40% of the rainforest is at risk over slightly reduced precipitation in any of WWF’s own research.

How did the IPCC come to include this claim in its report to the UN? Supposedly, all of the underlying data is supposed to be peer-reviewed, legitimate research by professional scientists and not advocates. Yet within nine days we have seen two of its major claims turn out to be anecdotal speculation based on nothing at all. It goes right along with those Himalayan glaciers that were supposedly going to disappear within 25 years — at best, speculation that the IPCC falsely presented as scientific research, and likely a large load of carbon-rich effluvium.

Speaking of the glaciers, I Hate The Media has twelve glaciers that haven’t gotten the IPCC’s marching orders yet. Most interesting: the new glacier forming in the concave top of Mount St. Helens in Washington.

Thank God for this rigorous peer review prrocess for the document.
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #258 on: January 28, 2010, 10:14:12 PM »
I read the Toronto Star everyday, its just left of Pravda

Unfortunately based on the emails leaked, even the peer review process has been corrupted by a few through pressure and withholding of funds and access to journal publication

Stan, maybe you dont see it with your rose coloured glasses, but big oil is not the only bad guy.  People like Maurice Strong are out to destroy the West and he was one of the first to get rich on Carbon Taxes and Cap and Trade

Pravda Russian word for Truth.....

I miss Soviet TV


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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #259 on: January 28, 2010, 10:34:06 PM »
As an old cold war warrior... I miss the old days too :D

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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #260 on: January 28, 2010, 10:37:46 PM »
I'm growing my eyebrow and ear hair out so I look like Leonid Breznev.....

Its not as easy as it sounds you know.
My wife tries to wax me in my sleep.....
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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #261 on: January 28, 2010, 10:49:00 PM »
Andrew
....I think I spoke about "who are you gonna trust" on this issue.  

Well I know one person I wouldn't trust if he were in the last dozen people on earth and it would be your friend, James Delingpole from the Daily Telegraph.

 Not only has he absolutely NO scientific background, but he is their extreme right wing political reporter.  He describes himself as a Libertarian...."One which advocates the maximization of individual liberty and the minimization or even abolition of the state."

These people are the most extreme of all the nut cases.  This particular nut case has evidently written 2 books,  How to be Right: The Essential Guide to Making Lefty Liberals History, and Welcome to Obamaland: I Have Seen Your Future and It Doesn't Work

Doesn't sound like he's apt to approach any topic with an open mind and fair reporting procedures.

Please, before you go to a whole lot of trouble typeing in stuff for me to read, make sure they aren't named "Inhofe" or call themselves Libertarians or stuff like that.  It'll save both of us a lot of work.
Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #262 on: January 28, 2010, 11:00:20 PM »

Speaking of the glaciers, I Hate The Media has twelve glaciers that haven’t gotten the IPCC’s marching orders yet. Most interesting: the new glacier forming in the concave top of Mount St. Helens in Washington.

Thank God for this rigorous peer review prrocess for the document.

OK, despite the "I Hate the Media" 's extreme right wing bias, it looks interesting enough to research.  I've contacted a buddy of mine at the local college and it seems the reference for the Himalaya glaciers story was referenced to a John Shroder "HIMALAYA TO THE SEA: GEOMORPHOLOGY AND THE QUATERNARY OF PAKISTAN IN THE REGIONAL CONTEXT John F. Shroder, jr" and they have a copy of his latest book.  I'll get it out and read it.  If there is a statement backing up this story, I'll let you know.
Stan

Hangin out, doin the research cause it's fun  ;D

mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #263 on: January 29, 2010, 01:24:46 AM »
this whole thread made more sense when we were getting
"boobs from a boob"

:)

funny how we can't pay any mind to a libertarian, or right wing folks, but i have to choke down
everything hook line and sinker from the lunatic left?

amazing!

Stan, what if your boys are proven wrong?  what will you say then?

will it be because big oil bought them off? or some right wing conspiracy snuffed them out?

or will you be big enough to come out and say, "hey guys i was duped"

just curious

don't throw me that old song of "thousands of scientists say ... yada yada yada..."

because i can show you many examples of mass hysteria taking over the minds of the elites over history
sometimes numbering into the millions, latest example that comes to mind that most everyone knows about
was the nazi movement, ku klux klan, and of course the global cooling of the 70's, and the list goes on.

bob g

bob g
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #264 on: January 29, 2010, 01:48:11 AM »
I'm a big fan of the boob.
I figuere we should see more of them.

What we need is some fresh perspective about life.
That and we all need to fill in our organ donor cards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvk

And I don't think there are enough people wearing hats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QJvc_SxFQ&NR=1
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #265 on: January 29, 2010, 02:06:27 AM »
Perhaps we have been asking the wrong the questions.....

Or the wrong people the questions.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ9myHhpS9s&feature=related


Great balls of Fire!!!!!
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #266 on: January 29, 2010, 02:15:31 AM »
this whole thread made more sense when...... we were getting mass hysteria taking over the minds of the elites over history
sometimes numbering into the millions. Latest example that comes to mind that most everyone knows about
was the nazi movement, ku klux klan, and of course the global cooling of the 70's, and the list goes on.

bob g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVxM5IBLeU4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 02:20:22 AM by Doug »
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #267 on: January 29, 2010, 02:36:02 AM »
OMG... now this makes sense.  Stan be careful, this says its not Al Gore that saved the world, its Ronald Ragan and Brian Mulrooney... Stan dont read any more, your heat cant take it  :D (just kidding with you)

 The Ozone hole did it...Hummmmm.
The ozone hole did it Posted: January 09, 2010, 12:41 AM by NP Editor Lawrence Solomon, Climate change, global warming, Wikipedia, carbon dioxide, CO2, carbon, MWP, Climatic Research Unit, Climategate, CRU, East Anglia University, climate change scandal, global warming scandal, UK Met Office, Climate gate New Univeristy of Waterloo study finds CFCs, not CO2, to be the cause of recent global warming

By Lawrence Solomon

Climate change is real and man-made, explains University of Waterloo professor Qin-Bin Lu, author of a new study published this week in the peer-reviewed journal, Physics Reports.

Professor Lu also explains that the climate change crisis is over. Thanks to an international environmental treaty, the planet is no longer in peril. We have, in fact, begun a long cooling period that will bring Earth's temperatures back to normal.

The man-made cause of global warming is not CO2 and the international treaty that saved the planet is not the Kyoto Protocol. Rather, says Dr. Lu, the true cause of global warming has been CFCs, or chlorofluorocarbons, a class of chemicals that was once widely used in aerosol cans and refrigeration. As CFC use soared in the decades following World War II, he explains, the globe started warming dramatically. The world stopped warming dramatically when government regulations began to phase out CFCs, an event that culminated in the western world in 2000. Almost immediately afterward, in 2002, the world began to cool as CFCs started to diminish in our atmosphere.

The heroes in this tale are environmentalists and world leaders such as U.S. President Ronald Reagan and Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, who got together to sign the Montreal Protocol of 1987. This protocol was designed to stop the Ozone Hole from developing above the Antarctic by ridding the planet of ozone-destroying CFCs. Little did either the environmentalists or the world leaders recognize at the time, explains Professor Lu, that their actions would also eliminate the threat to the planet of global warming.

Professor Lu, a path-breaking scientist in the field of ozone protection, made his CO2 discovery by accident — he was looking for culprits in the formation of the ozone hole over Antarctica. A chief suspect was CO2: Climate models produced by climatologists showed that CO2 would have devastating effects on the ozone layer, significantly enlarging the ozone hole over Antarctica and dramatically enlarging it over the Arctic. But when Dr. Lu compared the imagined output of the climate models with the actual measurements taken real-time by satellites and weather balloons, the models turned out to be soaring failures.


Ozone hole over South Pole: "Warming on Earth's surface between 1950 and 2000 is pretty much due to CFCs," says Prof. Qin-Bin Lu. Photo credit NASA.

"I didn't see any CO2 effect on temperature or ozone depletion over the South Pole from 1956 to 2008," explained Dr. Lu, surprised at how totally different the real-world measurements were from those that the climate model predicted. The real-world measurements showed CO2 to be largely irrelevant – "the global warming on Earth's surface between 1950 and 2000 is pretty much due to CFCs," he concluded. "The models say that CO2 is a major greenhouse gas but the facts show otherwise."

In contrast, CFCs have long been known to be a greenhouse gas that, on a molecule per molecule basis, is 10,000 times more potent than CO2. Professor Lu's satellite and balloon measurements showed that factor of 10,000 to have been a gross underestimate!

Had CFCs never been widely used in our air conditioners and refrigerators, Dr. Lu believes, the Earth would not have warmed in the last century. And had CFCs not been banned, he would not be predicting a period of global cooling.

But with the CFC ban, and the subsequent phase-out of this ozone destroying chemical, global warming stopped and, early this decade, a period of global cooling began. This cooling will last "at least 50 years, and possibly 70 years" as the global temperatures return to their pre-CFC levels, he explains, barring the rise of an alternative to CFC, or the introduction of another greenhouse gas into the atmosphere.

The cooling, he predicts, will be gentle – "after 2010 or so, the globe temperature will experience a small bounce back but a general declining tendency will not change." Neither will the new levels be worrisome – Earth will find itself back at the levels of the 1950s, which themselves hadn't changed much over the previous century.

Dr Lu's study is now published and the reviews he has received to date have been favourable but he may find himself writing a postscript in three year's time. Like hundreds of other scientists around the world, Dr. Lu may have unwittingly relied on invalid data for a portion of his study. His real-time satellite and balloon data, which shows CO2 does not cause climate change, is not in dispute. Not so for the historical temperature data, on which he based his estimates of how much global cooling we face as Earth's temperatures return to their historic pre-CFC levels. "My temperature data comes from the UK – the Climate Research Unit at East Anglia University," he reveals when questioned.

As a result of the Climategate Scandal, this temperature data is now in doubt. Investigations into the Climategate emails are underway at East Anglia and the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. More significantly, CRU's data is so suspect that the UK Met Office, which partnered with the Climate Research Unit in producing datasets for researchers, is undertaking a mammoth three-year investigation during which it will re-examine 160 years of original temperature data to determine to what extent, if any, CRU cooked the books.

Because of all this uncertainty, "I cannot say how reliable their data is," states Professor Lu, who has done his best to reassure himself that all is in order. When the Climategate scandal erupted as his study was being completed, he cross-checked the CRU data to that of NOAA, another prominent organization, and then he cross-checked his data again when CRU's partner, the UK Met Office, released more data. "All of them look similar," Professor Lu says. Professor Lu's cross-checks provide scant reassurance, however, because all these data-handling agencies had drawn their data from the same tainted pool. Although Professor Lu declines to comment on the Climategate scandal, he cannot be confident that his study will not need to be redone in three year's time, when the UK Met Office completes its re-examination.

One calculation in his study that may change with revised CRU data: His 50-70 year estimate of the coming global cooling may change by two or three decades. One calculation that won't change: CO2's contribution to global warming remains approximately nil.

Financial Post


Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/f...x#ixzz0dwMkMIwZ

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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #268 on: January 29, 2010, 02:52:21 AM »
I have done my best to derail this thread and drag it off topic because I feel it serves the interest on no one.

friends....

We are fucked not because we can not agree global warming over population and green houses.
Not because the science is bad or we lack the proper information.
Not because we lack the capacity to debate and understand.

We think too small, like the frog at the bottom of the well. He thinks the sky is only as big as the top of the well. If he surfaced, he would have an entirely different view. - Mao Tse-Tung

Then again thats what I think.....

There is nothing more practical than a good theory. - Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev
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mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #269 on: January 29, 2010, 04:54:12 AM »
Doug:

for godsakes man,  get with the program!

:)

we go from boobs to chairman mao?

from boobs to Brezhnev?

unbelievable!!!

i for one think we need to go back to "boobs"!!

at least that is one subject most on both sides of this arguement find some middle ground to agree on.

bob g
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