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Author Topic: Climate Warming a hoax?  (Read 199585 times)

t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2009, 02:14:33 AM »
Oh no, say it is not so, Al Gore is wrong, and his science is wrong too?

==============================
 Dutch: Gore Wrong on Snows of Kilimanjaro

The Netherlands is afire today over a Dutch study concluding Mount Kilimanjaro's snow melt — used as a symbol of AGW by Al Gore — is entirely natural.
December 3, 2009 - by Leon de Winter

Newspapers and news sites in the Netherlands today extensively broke the news of the findings of a research team led by Professor Jaap Sinninghe Damste — a leading molecular paleontologist at Utrecht University and winner of the prestigious Spinoza Prize — about the melting icecap of the Kilimanjaro, the African mountain that became a symbol of anthropogenic global warming.

Professor Sinninghe Damste’s research, as discussed on the site of the Dutch Organization of Scientific Research (DOSR) — a governmental body — shows that the icecap of Kilimanjaro was not the result of cold air but of large amounts of precipitation which fell at the beginning of the Holocene period, about 11,000 years ago.

The melting and freezing of moisture on top of Kilimanjaro appears to be part of “a natural process of dry and wet periods.” The present melting is not the result of “environmental damage caused by man.”

Professor Damste studied organic biomarker molecules in the sediment record of Lake Challa, near Mount Kilimanjaro, and reconstructed the changes and intensity of precipitation in this part of Africa over the last 25,000 years. They observed an 11,500 year cycle of intense monsoon precipitation.

In the dry period between 12,800 and 11,500 years ago, Kilimanjaro was ice-free.

At the end of this period, a dramatic climate change from very dry to very wet took place — driven by changes in solar radiation — resulting in the creation of an icecap. At the moment, this part of Africa seems to be at the end of a similar dry period, resulting in the disappearance of the famous icecap.

DOSR calls Al Gore’s iconic use of the melting cap of Kilimanjaro “unfortunate” — since it now seems to be mainly the result of “natural climate variations.”

The journal Nature published the highly technical article by Professor Sinninghe Damste’s team.

The website of Elsevier magazine — the Netherlands’ most circulated political weekly — broke the news as follows: “Dutchman discredits Al Gore’s climate evidence.”

Leon de Winter is columnist for Elsevier Magazine in Holland. He is also a bestselling novelist and adjunct-fellow at the Hudson Institute. He is presently living in Los Angeles.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dutch-gore-wr...of-kilimanjaro/
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apogee_man

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2009, 03:36:10 AM »
I think what's important is being lost in all of the mayhem.

Global warming boils down to one of the following four statements:

1) Global warming (or cooling) is happening and is the result of man-made activities - we do nothing to change our behavior = eventual extinction

2) Global warming (or cooling) is happening and is the result of man-made activities - we change our behavior = possible survival

3) Global warming (or cooling) is not the result of man's activities - we do nothing to change our behavior = eventual extinction anyway

4) Global warming (or cooling) is not the result of man's activities - we change our behavior = possible extinction anyway

Seems to me that #2 is the only logical choice that makes sense.  If we're wrong, SO WHAT?  The other possibilities are too extreme to take a chance on IMHO.

We can't continue trashing the nest the way we are and expect to survive.  Doesn't take a rocket scientist or a crap-load of climate change data to come to that conclusion.

Am I missing something?

And yes, it infuriates me that it affects my ability to own and run my Listers (long-term)

Steve

Jim Mc

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2009, 04:38:14 AM »
If we're wrong, SO WHAT?  ...


So what?  Are you serious?  Have you any idea how much money will  be 'redistributed' as a result of 'fixing' climate change?  to fix somethinig that may not even exist. 

Quote

Am I missing something?



Yes - All 4 of your statements presuppose that climate change is occuring.  Convince me.  I'm a scientist, and remain skeptical...


apogee_man

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2009, 05:03:23 AM »
Highest CO2 concentrations in roughly 600,000 years (ice cores)
Pine bark beetles wiping out vast tracks of forest (usually kept in check by lower temps)
Ocean acidification
Reef die off
What appear to be more intense (at least changing) storm cycles
Decrease in size of polar caps
Migratory behavior that appears to be confused due to changing climate

All point to climate change. 

What is ultimately responsible is anyone's guess.

Citing the redistribution of wealth is not an adequate argument to stay the current course and continue trashing the nest.

Let's assume that we don't do anything and the global warming skeptics are wrong.  Then what?

Are you willing to gamble on the survival of future generations because you're concerned about redistribution of wealth?

The point is, using redistribution as an excuse to not change is not an option IMHO. 

Whether it's climate change, pollution, over-population, etc is really not the issue.  The real issue is we as a species had better get our collective act together in a hurry and modify our behavior because multiple signs seem to indicate that we are quickly approaching what appears to be a tipping point.

Regards,

Steve
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 05:08:59 AM by apogee_man »

Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2009, 06:21:52 AM »
Actually Jim if you are concerned about the redistribution of wealth, think about what has been happening in our world since the proliferation of the "global economy", where the large multinational corporations have been grabbing up the vast majority of wealth that exists in the world at a rate far exceeding anything that has happened in the history of mankind.  This started several decades ago and has been accelerating ever since.

I agree this is an untenable situation because certainly I have not seen any of this newly developed wealth.  It is already being "redistributed", right into the hands of the incredibly wealthy, and out of my hands.  I figure you have heard the phrase "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer" haven't you?  If you look at the figures for your country or mine, you will see that that's exactly what's been happening faster and faster every year!

If some other form of "redistribution" is going to happen because of global warming, I'd welcome it, especially if I could grab a tiny bit of it as it goes by me!  Hey, I'd even offer to work hard for it, something the executives of Goldman Sachs obviously haven't done!!!!!  ???
Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2009, 03:26:24 PM »
I can't believe I am wading into this ....
Has anyone here heard of Global shading?

Its another one of those observations that concludes climat is moderated by the effects of man. Simply put for the first 75 years of the last century dirty industry and power generation put enough soot and ash into the air to act as a shade and reduce the amount fo solar radiation hitting the ground/

The fact it has an effect was proved by the small increase in ground temperature around 9/11 when all those jet contrails were missing above the USA.
Its also been measure in very dry places like Isreal where the measured amount of sunlight hitting the earth dropped for 40 years after 1940s and then started to rise again in the 80s as our technology imporved to reduce polution.

Now in all the places where emissions controls are not a priority like Asia they have this brown smog effect you can see from orbit cvaused by dust ash and soot from the furnaces. One should ask does this moderate the effects of global warming and are the long term effects on climat ewhen they realy do clean up their acts?

Lets do nothing anyways....
Canada can only Bennifit from a milder winter and longer growing season and the increases inprices for the food we will export to the hotter drier places like the USA will make up for the losses we suffer in other areas...
What an arogant and ignorant statement eh?
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mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2009, 04:21:55 PM »
there is at least one other option to add to the list

5. the global changes are normal cycles and we go on living as usual, even if we have to move about to more temperate area's

6. there are "no" manmade changes and we go on living as we have for thousands of years,

7. there is manmade global warming and after a time  the good old earth makes changes to compensate, and we go on liveing here
as we always have.

basically there are far more options than the 4 listed in my opinion.

certainly we can affect our climate on a regional basis, just as the civilizations did in and around chile about a thousand years ago, by creating terraces and large tracts of forest altered their local climate in a way that made it easier to live there, or the nile region
where once were fertile fields are now fallow because of mass irrigation raising the salt level and sterilizing their land about 2000 years ago.

one is an example of how man makes things better, the other how he makes things worse, but both are very regional and localized in nature,, we just don't have the power to alter the climate of the total planet in a predictable manner.

how about this

what if we all decide to radiacally alter our carbon foot print and do it over the next year or two,, no more coal being burned, no more petroleum being burned, nada,,, we live in the cold and suffer, only to find out that the good old earth had mechanisms in place to compensate for what we had been doing that gradually offset our actions over 150 years, and now when asked to alter those same mechanisms in a year or even 10 years might well be too fast and cause the whole system to become unstable.  nature is full of such examples if only for being localized or regiional in nature.

i really wonder if this would be an issue at all if not for the nearly 140 trillion dollars that weighs in the balance.

like an orphan disease, if there is no money to make with it, you never hear about it and we as a group go on living like we have
for thousands of years.

we peasants look to so called scientists, politicians and "elites" as being honorable folks, surely they would not lie?  i assert there is probably more corruption in those groups than there is among we peasants, basically because most of us peasants are too friggin busy
trying to eek out a living and pay the taxes needed to support the system and provide the fuel of their corruption, to have much time or energy left to be corrupt in any meaningful way.. .. yes there are always exceptions but i think most will understand my thinking.

i really think it is our duty to be very skeptical,  if the science is good it has to prove itself out over time, to accept anything less is to
accept being led and lied to, and used much as a slave to a master.

if the science was so good, so conclusive there would have been no reason to skew the numbers, cook the books, discredit those that
disagree'd, refuse to publish decenting research etc.  these are all acts of desperate folks that know the science is flawed and will do anything to cover to protect their grants, jobs etc.



bob g
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compig

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2009, 04:31:46 PM »
I can't believe I am wading into this ....
Has anyone here heard of Global shading?

Yeah , I've heard of that and saw the report on the effect when all air traffic was grounded just after 911. Difficult to argue with the data from that investigation.
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mike90045

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2009, 06:56:19 PM »
I'm trying to find my link to Urban Heat Islands, that had photos of the weather stations 50 years ago, in the middle of the town park, and the current photos - with the park gone, and a trailer building's AC blower backed up against the weather station.  Yep, temps went up. :-\

mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2009, 08:29:15 PM »
yes once there was a cave, and it was relatively cool year round
then a bear moved in and spent the winters and the temperature went up on average
at bit over prior years,
then a cave man clubbed the bear and took his cave, then moved in his family
and the temperature average went up a bit more over the year,,,

then he discovered fire!

and the average temp went way up in that cave, but

it was one cave, one cave does not make a global climate change.

now if a certain climatologist named "Og" decided to track temperatures
and instead of tracking temps outside out in the middle of the forest, he waited till no
one was looking and took the temps inside the caves in the area, over time as fellow cavemen
became to inhabit them.... and after a few years he started running around yelling "the sky is falling"
"we need to form a committe", "we need to estabilsh carbon credits, raise taxes, redistribute the meat from
the kill" and all that bullcrap, who would wanna bet that old Og might have met a rather untimely end?

jeesh fellows, this is so simple even a caveman can do it!

:)

bob g
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2009, 11:51:24 PM »
Hi Bob!
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2009, 11:57:28 PM »
Insert Quote
Quote
Highest CO2 concentrations in roughly 600,000 years (ice cores)
Are you sure of that?  The 1900-1960s had higher levels - Killer SMOG in GB and Europe.  Cars and factories in the West have become cleaner.  I also was reading an article by an Historian that pointed out the Middle ages had higher levels, oh but wait that was the little ice age, not global warming, inconvenient of me to point that out

Quote
Pine bark beetles wiping out vast tracks of forest (usually kept in check by lower temps)
Yes, except it appears mans limiting of free burns by the forests may have contributed there, so our wish to not clear cut, and allow the fires to not burn actually help the beetles (not native to BC either) so I will give you that, that is a man made problem, but nothing to do with global climate change

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Ocean acidification
 That would be with acid rain, Sulfer not CO2, and we have been working in the western work since the days of ACID rain to change that... its Chinna and the third world that produce that now
 
Quote
Reef die off
see above

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What appear to be more intense (at least changing) storm cycles
ummmm thats why the hurricane season these past two years have been .. quiet.  But that would explain the sudden storms that would regularly sink Spanish Gold shipments, or the Kamikaze storm that wiped out the Chinese invasion fleet.  It would also explain the hot summers that cause the mold to grow in the rye fields causing the black plague.  So is it more intense or just changing?  And what does that have to do with us??

Quote
Decrease in size of polar caps
 Actually, the ice cap has been getting larger for the past 8 years, just ask the Inuit.  Course the perma frost in the Western Arctic has started to thaw, but then the eastern arctic it has gotten colder.  BTW it was -30C in Calgary today.. love that warming

Quote
Migratory behavior that appears to be confused due to changing climate
 Now now that is a stretch.  Why it was only a few years ago the Scientists where blaming it on all the buildings that were causing micro climates, the lights at night that block out thier view of the stars, and of course now we are told not to turn off the building lights because when we do that... bingo we have an increase in bird strikes.  Of course, it does not help with all those old ladies feeding bread to the Geese that they decide not to leave for southern climates.
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All point to climate change.
No, they point to change.  Some man made, some not
Quote
What is ultimately responsible is anyone's guess.
 Finally you are making sense
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Citing the redistribution of wealth is not an adequate argument to stay the current course and continue trashing the nest.
On this I agree with you, we need to continue to combat pollution.  We need to use trade and tarrifs to get the 3d world to adopt clean ways of doing things, not cheap and dirty (like how they make Listeroids).  But you have to admit that trying to get funding for a Global Warming thesis is easier than one pointing out the Sun is in its normal rest period. when you have the likes of AUC doing your peer review


Quote
Let's assume that we don't do anything and the global warming skeptics are wrong.  Then what?
What about this.  We go off half cocked, ruin our economies and find out global warming is a hoax... what then... ask the Chinese for our money back??

As for Alternative energy, I am all in favour of it, on National Security Grounds so we can tell the Arabs to F-off and drink their oil and we can stop sponsoring Terrorists.  
Quote
Are you willing to gamble on the survival of future generations because you're concerned about redistribution of wealth?

Yes, I dont want to enslave my children to some third world power base who has our wealth and is taking care of themselves.  You suffer too much of the white mans guilt for all the wrongs in the world.  I dont buy in to it.  Western Civilization for all its wort's is not that bad

Cheers

Andrew
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2009, 01:44:29 AM »
how you been Bob?
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2009, 02:15:45 AM »

The data from the Climatic Research Unit at East Anglia University — headquarters for Climategate — is now discredited. This discredits any findings by other research bodies that relied on the Climategate data.

How much falls from Climategate, whose participants read like a Who’s Who at the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change? Not much, says CRU’s disgraced director, Phil Jones, pointing out that CRU’s data for global temperatures is but one of several datasets, all in general agreement. Besides, many argue, CRU was no linchpin to the science. The IPCC relied on numerous other sources. Throw CRU out, they say, and the IPCC’s conclusions remain unshakable.

In truth, if you throw CRU out, you’ve eviscerated the findings of the IPCC’s Fourth Assessment Report, the most recent and most definite opus from the UN. This is the report, received with universal acclaim in 2007, which scarily stated: “The warming of the climate system is unequivocal.”

The argument over global warming requires evidence that the globe is warming in dangerous ways. This evidence the IPCC presents forcefully in its third chapter on surface and atmospheric warming, which rests overwhelmingly on the official global temperature record of the United Nations World Meteorological Organization, called the HADCRUT3 temperature dataset.

And who produced the HADCRUT3 dataset for the World Meteorological Organization? The Hadley Centre of the UK government’s meteorological office (the HAD of HADCRUT3) and the University of East Anglia’s Climatic Research Unit (the CRU).

And for those that say its not about money
The EU's emission trading scheme (ETS) may have been the deciding factor in the closure of the Corus Redcar steel-making plant – reported last week , giving the company a windfall bonus of up to £1.2 billion from the plant closure – on top of other savings.

Earlier this year, Corus – part of the Tata Group Europe - disclosed that its UK steel inventory was "close to exhaustion" and analysts are expecting improved earnings from second-half trading as production is increased to meet a rebound in demand.

Mothballing the efficient Redcar plant (with no expectations of its re-opening) thus fails to make obvious commercial sense, especially as Tata bought the plant only in 2007 as part of its strategy to give it better access to European (including UK markets).

However, revealed by The Times today (although the information has been available since June is an illustration of how valuable an alternative product - "carbon allowances" is to the group.

The paper's story focuses on the rival ArcelorMittal group, pointing out that it has accumulated 20.8 million surplus allowances (EUAs) given to it free by the EU. With the carbon price at over £13, they are worth about £270 million. But, with additional surplus allowances up to 2012 and an increased carbon price – expected to rise to £30 - the company could have gained assets worth around £1 billion.
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2009, 02:53:44 AM »
How's the weather out west Bob?
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