Author Topic: Climate Warming a hoax?  (Read 199623 times)

Jim Mc

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2009, 03:56:14 AM »
...Then do an experiment yourself for a few bucks that I've done a hundred times or more in the grade 10 environmental studies unit in chemistry.  Build a box out of anything (I did mine out of plexiglass cause it was free) about a yard by a yard by a yard.  Put a tiny christmas light in it beside a thermometer probe (radio shack, $5) with a pie plate between them.  Drill a 1/2" hole in the top, and another near the bottom.  Turn the light on and record the temperature over a couple of days.  Then squirt some carbon dioxide into the bottom hole to drive most of the air out the top hole.  ...

That's interesting.  We tried that experiment here, and saw no difference in temperature that exceeded our estimate of experimental error.  Would you mind posting a link to a detailed description of this experiment?  I teach science to my daughter, and this will be her next assignment...

As I said, we ran this experiment a few times, as it was described in her physical science text, and the results were pretty random.  The design of the experiment in that book was so poor, and had such poor treatment of the concept of a control that it was pointless. (Plastic ziploc bags placed in the sunshine – good grief)  It’s my opinion that that hasn’t stopped plenty of science teachers from ‘teaching’ what the experiment ‘proved’, however…

Gong a little farther out on a limb here…

I just don’t see how a heat source (your Christmas light) in a sealed environment is an accurate model for the earth and its atmosphere in space.  Two huge differences jump right out at me  -

First, on earth, the heat source (the sun) is outside the atmosphere, whereas you propose to put it in the box with the CO2.

Second, in your CO2-filled box, convective heat transfer plays a role in removing heat from the box, and currents will be set up and move the gas around in the box and along the outside surfaces.  Earth, as far as I know, does not lose heat through convection - only radiation.

The more I think about this "experiment" the more it ticks me off.  Not for what it is, but for what it is being (mis)used for.  Ever have any skeptics in your classes?  Encourage them.  Please. 



« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 04:28:32 AM by Jim Mc »

Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2009, 06:15:46 AM »
Actually Jim, the description of the experiment I saw in an old science text book was pretty much as you describe which is why I designed the plexiglass box.  As I said it was approx. 1 metre cubed, and sealed with silicone except for the input and outlet holes ~1" D.  And yes, you are exactly right, there are [invisible] currents in the CO2 "atmosphere" just like there are currents in the "real" earths atmosphere.  Many large thunderhead clouds have been reported by airline pilots to have updrafts many thousands of feet higher than the regular airline altitudes.

You should really read up on the physics of sunlight and how it heats the earth, especially if you are home schooling your daughter.  What happens in the most simplistic terms is the sunlight hits the darker portions of the earth's surface, heats up those portions of the earth's surface, then that heat radiates upward into the atmosphere, and is both radiated out of the atmosphere and convected upward by air currents where it then radiates out of the atmosphere.

If you wanted to be really accurate, you could mount a black ball in the plexiglass box and shine a heat lamp from outside the box on it.  You'll get the same results, that is if you can keep the heat lamp's light off the thermostat's pickup by using the aluminum pie plate.

That's one of the major things that is happening because of climate change.  It's called a "runaway" reaction.  As the ice and snow (ice and snow are white and reflect most of the sun's radiation) melts earlier in the year, there is more dark surface to absorb heat, this melts more snow and ice, resulting in yet more dark surface resulting in more heat and so on and so on.  When enough ice and snow are gone, we reach what is called the "tipping point" and then the hockey stick graph of heating really turns up.  Have your daughter read "Gaia's Revenge"  (or maybe it's the revenge of Gaia, I forget the exact title) by Lovelock, it's a good, interesting read, and it'll encourage alternate thinking on her part.

And, Yes, I encouraged alternate thinking in the classroom.  That's science!  however, facts are facts and my students mostly understood that opinions don't trump facts, not in a Science classroom.

I've been following the Copenhagen summit and am really disgusted with it.  No one is mentioning the many other parts of the whole system that are running amok.  The world's deforestation, the increase in the number of automobiles, the decrease in the oceanic coral reefs, the increasing extinctions both in the ocean and on land, the horrific problem with fresh water,  etc. etc. etc.   All these and more phenomenon are showing textbook "hockey stick" graphs and are all related.  Just taking action to mitigate co2 release by petroleum products isn't going to be nearly enough.


And no one is even whispering about the "Elephant in the Room"!


Stan
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 06:17:34 AM by Stan »

mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2009, 07:49:20 AM »
Doug:

how cold is it out west?

colder than a witches boob in a brass bra!

:)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2009, 03:06:58 PM »
Same here colder than a well digger's arse lol.
Haven't heard from you in quite some time I was beginning to wonder what happened.
You been up too anything interesting?
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Jim Mc

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2009, 05:44:43 PM »
Stan,

If we could just focus on the experiment for a bit…

First question for you – What conclusion do you draw from the experiment?  I’d like to see a carefully worded statement that you believe is accurate.

Second – Below are some essential characteristics comparing my understanding of the earth vs. your 1m cube. 

a.   The earth is about 13,000,000 m in diameter.  Your box is 1 m. 
b.   The earth is heated exclusively by solar insolation at a few hundred W/m^2, while your box is heated mostly by convection from a light bulb of unspecified wattage.
c.   The earth loses heat exclusively by radiation into space, while your box loses heat by conduction through the Plexiglas walls. 
d.   The earth’s atmosphere is comprised of CO2 at a few hindred PPM.  You’ve given us no idea what concentration you used, but I’d say it’s safe to say it was many orders of magnitude greater.


Bottom line for me is that while your experiment does indicate something, applying it to the earth is completely unconvincing.

Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2009, 06:06:08 PM »
In order to clear the air a little with reguards to GHG experiments with light bulbs, boxes and eccostsyms we need to study the results and sift the data.

For the sake of clarity remember, "You cant squeeze cheeze from a cow before it hatches".

I do have 1000w MH light bulb. For the sake of time and effort I think we need to scale down a planet and eccosystem. My hope is we can have some answeres by Monday.....
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2009, 06:17:07 PM »
Doug, Bob, why not go to the chat room, thats a better place for your private moments LOL
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

apogee_man

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2009, 08:13:07 PM »
And how did I know that I'd stir you chaps up a bit...

 ;D

A few cold days does not a cooling trend make...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601130&sid=axqsAEyw7U.A

Steve

Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2009, 11:32:50 PM »
Stan,

If we could just focus on the experiment for a bit…

First question for you – What conclusion do you draw from the experiment?  I’d like to see a carefully worded statement that you believe is accurate.

Second – Below are some essential characteristics comparing my understanding of the earth vs. your 1m cube. 

a.   The earth is about 13,000,000 m in diameter.  Your box is 1 m. 
b.   The earth is heated exclusively by solar insolation at a few hundred W/m^2, while your box is heated mostly by convection from a light bulb of unspecified wattage.
c.   The earth loses heat exclusively by radiation into space, while your box loses heat by conduction through the Plexiglas walls. 
d.   The earth’s atmosphere is comprised of CO2 at a few hindred PPM.  You’ve given us no idea what concentration you used, but I’d say it’s safe to say it was many orders of magnitude greater.


Bottom line for me is that while your experiment does indicate something, applying it to the earth is completely unconvincing.


CO2 acts as a blanket trapping heat.

A. you are correct.
B. you are partially correct
C. you are wrong.
D. you are correct.

Jim Mc

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2009, 02:25:10 AM »
"trapping heat"?  I see that sort of 'explanation' a lot, but can't you be more specific?  (I was hoping for some tie to a common physical parameter of C02, such as its thermal conductivity, density, emissitivity, specific heat, etc)

Also, you make no mention about this experiment being a model for global warming.  Is it?


If (9b) is partly right, what part is wrong?

Can we break my statement (c) down and see where you disagree? 

1.   The earth loses heat exclusively by radiation into space
2.   your box loses heat by conduction through the Plexiglas walls

Perhaps I should have said "the system, composed of earth and its atmosphere, loses heat exclusively by radiation into space"?  Or is there some means you've employed to stop heat from being conducted through the walls of the box?

« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 02:34:05 AM by Jim Mc »

billswan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2009, 12:48:14 PM »
thought I would post this it makes me laugh, of course I am just a dumb farmer out wreaking the environment so what do I know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpQXY4tWaoI
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2009, 03:58:48 PM »
Doug, Bob, why not go to the chat room, thats a better place for your private moments LOL

Well I considered it but my eyes have trouble with the small text and Bob's fingers are the size of Italian sausages hampering typing speed. By the time we figuere out what the other is tryping we wouldd loose interest lol
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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2009, 04:46:51 PM »
Jim, the earth doesn't lose heat exclusively through radiation to space.  First the sun heats up the warmer parts of the earth (dirt, asphalt, green trees etc).  It really doesn't matter what heats up those things, the fact that they are heated up is the important thing.  Then the dirt/asphalt/trees, both radiates heat, and heats up the air by convective heat transfer (too complicated a concept until grade 10 or so).  Anyway, the asphalt/dirt/trees heat up the air which carries the heat waaay up into the sky and then it radiates out into space.  Just like my box loses heat into the "space" of the classroom.

Here's a quote from "Plows, Plagues & Petroleum, [how humans took control of climate]" by William Ruddiman.  "No credible climate scientist now doubts that humans have had an effect on Earth's climate during the last two centuries, primarily by causing increases in the concentrations of greenhouse gasses like carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere.  These gasses trap radiation emitted from Earth's surface after it has been heated by the sun, and the added heat retained in Earth's atmospheric envelope makes its climate warmer.

Because increases in both greenhouse gases and Earth's temperature during the last century have been measured, the so-called global warming debate is not about whether humans are warming climate or whether we will warm climate in future decades - we are warming it, and we will warm it more in future decades as greenhouse-gas concentrations rise.  The only issue under serious debate is: By how much?"

This is book is fantastic!  Ruddiman not only makes the climate change/global warming debate clear and simple to understand, but he expands the scope of mankinds effects on climate to the last 8000 years, not just the last 200 years!  He makes a credible case for the effects of agriculture (listen up Bill  ;D ) having a slight but important effect on climate that lasted for 8000 years, making the effects pronounced.

He states that if it weren't for the effects of agriculture over the last 8000 years, we would be heading full tilt into an ice age!  Fascinating!

« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 05:13:55 PM by Stan »

Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2009, 05:18:00 PM »
This has been one of the longest running threads here in quite sometime.

Question:

Has anyone changed their possition or have we simply created a lot of hot air?
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mike90045

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2009, 09:10:03 PM »
I'm trying to find my link to Urban Heat Islands, that had photos of the weather stations 50 years ago, in the middle of the town park, and the current photos - with the park gone, and a trailer building's AC blower backed up against the weather station.  Yep, temps went up. :-\


http://surfacestations.org/
Scroll to the 2 photos at the bottom. Both sites are only a few miles apart. Yet one is "cooling" and the other "warming"  . Duh. 


Building AC blows on station:
http://gallery.surfacestations.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3403   Sure is getting warmer every summer !!