Author Topic: Climate Warming a hoax?  (Read 143747 times)

Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2009, 12:23:34 AM »
Yes Doug..... I am confused too.  I don't quite know what the anti-global warmingist side is trying to say.  Is it....

1.) burning petrochemicals doesn't produce Carbon dioxide?  Cause if that's the case, the simply go down to your local car test station and get them to stick a probe up your exhaust (your car's not your own  ;) ) and watch the numbers.

2.) is it that everyone thinks their own truck or suv can't cause any damage?  Then they should get rid of their egocentricism and think of all the hundreds of million cars, the miriad of coal burning power plants both in N. America and now in China and India (yes coal is a petrochemical product emitting millions of years old carbon dioxide when burned).  Look up the numbers of oil being produced each day, it'll turn your blood cold cause all of that is being burned, every day!

3.) is it because they don't think that our HUGE atmosphere can be hurt by little old mankind?  Then simply look at some of the pictures from the space shuttle (no, they aren't fakes made in hollywood) and see just how thin our atmosphere really is. 

4.) is it because they don't think carbon dioxide helps trap heat?  Then do an experiment yourself for a few bucks that I've done a hundred times or more in the grade 10 environmental studies unit in chemistry.  Build a box out of anything (I did mine out of plexiglass cause it was free) about a yard by a yard by a yard.  Put a tiny christmas light in it beside a thermometer probe (radio shack, $5) with a pie plate between them.  Drill a 1/2" hole in the top, and another near the bottom.  Turn the light on and record the temperature over a couple of days.  Then squirt some carbon dioxide into the bottom hole to drive most of the air out the top hole.  I got mine from a supplier for the school but you can get yours from co2 pistol cartridges or anywhere.  Wait a couple of days and start taking the temperature.  What do you know?  It'll be a couple of degrees warmer than when there was just air in it?  Do this a hundred times and you get the same results.

Now I don't care if the heat that is being trapped by the co2 is from the sun, or from large numbers of menepausal women, the result is the same.  The temperature of the atmosphere is going to go up.  This isn't opinion, this is fact born out by common sense and observable numbers.  The same common sense that says if you hold a hockey puck out at arms length and let go of it, while standing still in your living room, it's going to fall down.

If you don't know what happens to a fluid (yes the earth's atmosphere is a fluid, just a lot thinner than water) when you heat it up, put some water in a glass pot and put it on the stove turned to med-high.  As the water comes to a boil it starts to roil around, creating turbulance.  It doesn't get any hotter than it's boiling point, (which depends upon your elevation) but it sure does get a lot more active.  That's what's happening to our climate.

None of this is good news for humans.
Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2009, 01:36:47 PM »
Stan the problem is this.  the data you and others have is wrong.  It has been manipulated and messaged to work in a crappy computer model... thats a fact.

CO2 is good for the environment, its what trees and plants need to grow. 
Its the claim that the CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere by human kind is the result of global warming that is false
Oh yeah, the earth while human kind have been on it as master has been higher, and the last 10 years there has been no increase in temperature.

Its these inconvenient truths that have people upset, and the fact that this Cap in Trade stuff is not about cleaning up anything, its about western guilt payments to the 3d world with no ties to them developing clean energy alternatives.  Its a Sham

Tell me, how will Cap and Trade payments help the environment as you see it??  Is any of this nonsenses clean up our lakes and oceans from sewer run off?  no.  Will it clean off the pollution from land fills?  no

I would rather spend money on real clean ups based on fact, that some massaged mumbo jumbo based on at best questionable science with no peer review
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2009, 02:25:09 PM »
Lastly, I have to include this one.

Kudos to Noel Sheppard.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard...ess-white-house

<Excerpts follow>

"Scientists involved in the growing ClimateGate scandal were cited in an October climate change report prepared for the White House and Congress.

Titled "Our Changing Planet," the 172-page document was created by The U.S. Global Change Research Program along with the Subcommittee on Global Change Research, and was submitted as a supplement to President Obama's fiscal 2010 budget.

As such, its contents not only impact future and current legislation involving global warming, but also how tax dollars are spent to research and address it.

<snip>

The subsequent chapters addressed a number of topics involving climate, and concluded with "Chapter References and Endnotes" where the following names appeared:

* Phil Jones, Director of the British Climate Research Unit
* Gavin Schmidt, NASA climatologist and climate modeler
* Michael Mann, Penn State professor and author of the Hockey Stick graph
* Benjamin Santer, Lawrence Livermore Lab climate modeler
* Raymond Bradley, professor at University of Massachusetts, Amherst
* Kevin Trenberth, head of the Climate Analysis Section at the National Center for Atmospheric Research
* Peter Stott, climate scientist at the UK Met office
* Tom Wigley, climate scientist at the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research

To be sure, that papers by these scientists would be cited in such a report is by no means shocking. They have been preparing high-profile documents about global warming for years including for the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

In reality, it would have been shocking if this report DIDN'T include them.

However, what is disturbing is that America's news media haven't cross-referenced this high-profile report with all the names in the e-mail messages obtained from the computers of the University of East Anglia, and reported to the American people just how connected to the United States government these people are."

<Excerpts end>
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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2009, 04:39:08 PM »
Hey Andrew, I agree with you 100% on the cap and trade issue.  Not only is it a way for the financial people to collect some more "little" administrative fees for transactions on the cap and trade market, but in Europe it has been proven to be very easy to manipulate.  Remember what I said about capitalism, its a wonderful system in a world without greed, but.......

I liken cap and trade to a fat guy paying a smoker to go on a diet for him, while the fat guy doesn't start smoking so the smoker can claim the fat guy's "non smoking benefits".  Everyone says there is some good going on, but nobody has changed a damn thing.  We've got to stop everyone from belching too much co2 into the atmosphere.  Emphasis on the "too much" as I also agree with you we need approximately 200-250 ppm co2 in the atmosphere to keep it balanced, but NOT the 375 ppm we have now and that is rising fast!  Once it hits 400 ppm we're toast cause it's the tipping point and then all we can do is duck and cover!
Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2009, 08:53:05 PM »
Where do you get your numbers on the tipping point??  Historically the earth in recent times has had greater, and we are still here.  Its not the CO2 that is the issue, its the other things that this whole debate fails to even address as existing.  There is no computer model avail to show where any tipping point is, its all based on fudged observations.  BTW this is the killer

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.

The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/envi...icle6936328.ece


According to other reports, those stations purged the data after providing it for much the same reasons, especially as it was safely stored at the University. . .
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2009, 09:26:07 PM »
Andrew, Stan.....

As much as I enjoy a good debate you have both dug in hard on your respective sides of the issue and nothing short of binding arbitration will bring both sides together.

What influence do a handful of middle aged men chicken pecking away at key boards really have on the world today? Unless we are people with a lot of money, a lot of influence, a lot of brains and of course a lot of connections we aren;t going to change the world. I am not sure we can even fully wrap our heads around the problem considering how much contradictory information there is floating around out there.

And unless we are prepared to sit down and sift through all the data ourselves, practicly a full time job if you ask me, and with truly unbiased eyes we can't be sure of anything in the age of persuasion.

What I can offer is I will mail you each some rocks.
An acid rain rock, scoarched black....
A piece of high grade massive sulphibe ore....
A chunk of fine high quality metalergical coal....
A piece of Slag that leaches heavymetals when wet....
The end prodcut is in your pockets alread nickels and pennies. What great good comes from these things and and how many dead fish dying trees and somewhere out there tonight someone full of Sinter75 is laying in a hospital bed on a ventilator waiting to take his last breath. It took 75 years to finaly realize what the problems were and find solutions. The legacy of of these things will be felt for generations to come.

If we have a climate CO2 problem we had better do something.
If we do nothing untill we are sure the damage may be beyond measure and impossible to deal with.
If we do the wrong thing we will not solve our problems and maybe make our lives worse.

Back to the man with the sinter75 ( nickel oxide ) in his lungs what does he regrete his job, his life , his choices?
I'm full of nickel too ( lets be specific now not a semi refined product but silica dust, lead , copper , PMs, carbon black ect ), enough so I am developing a sensitivity too it but I have nothign to worry about right because all the studdies say my levels are safe and food in my garden is safe right

Its all safe and OK right.......

Thats what they told the guy on the ventilator and they argued and studdied the hell out of it for decades.

Magnify my little problem by 6 billiion and the time to make the right choices is measured now in years not decades and you start to grasp how serious and isue this is. Can we afford to do nothing or should we be spending billions now to change course and studdy the problem. If nothing else we change course and learn to live a little cleaner life using less energy and 20 years down the road we have a good laugh about how much money we blew.

Thats the way I see it, but I grew up in a town were we discussed depleting natural resources and enviromental impact all my life. I've seen huge leaps in technology change a filthy buisness into something aproaching clean and actualy more cost effective and I have seen my own family die for nickels and pennies....
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 09:51:22 PM by Doug »
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2009, 11:01:39 PM »
Doug you hit the nail on the head.... do we have a CO2  crisis.... Its looking more and more like we have a CO2 Fraud and attempt to do a Y2K and get some money
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2009, 11:51:27 PM »
I don't know Andrew I can't be sure.

Like I said however the Smart people told me I have nothing to worry about and 5 months on the picket line and I am still hacking and horking up chunks of high grade ore and diesel soot.
I hope the scientists are all wrong and everythng is Honky Dorry. But I have seen companies Skew studdies and test results to try and insulate themselves from the trueth and I am more frieghten of a giant corperation with an agenda then just about anything.
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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2009, 12:23:36 AM »
You're right Doug....I'm afraid we were born into a species with a fatal flaw.  Some things we can only see in the rear view mirror.  Especially the big stuff like "is this good for you or bad for you" and "are we crapping in our home" etc.

Oh well, maybe in a few thousand years we might start getting some of it right.
Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2009, 12:45:41 AM »
Discussion resolved:

We know that we continue to make the same mistakes what ever they may be.
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2009, 05:25:59 PM »
Ok, Mr Goldstien says it much better than I

'Botch after botch after botch'

Leaked 'climategate' documents show huge flaws in the backbone of climate change science

By LORRIE GOLDSTEIN

Last Updated: 29th November 2009, 11:29am


I've been poring over one of many leaked computer files from the "climategate" scandal.

It's worse than those e-mails revealing leading climate scientists did a "trick" to "hide the decline" in global temperatures and privately called it a "travesty" they couldn't explain recent cooling.

This document has the innocuous header "HARRY_READ_Me.txt."

I'm indebted to Kate McMillan, the remarkable Canadian blogger who runs smalldeadanimals.com, for calling it to my attention.

You can easily find it online. I used www.anenglishmanscastle.com/HARRY_READ_Me.txt.

The file -- 274 pages long -- describes the efforts of a climatologist/programmer at the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia to update a huge statistical database (11,000 files) of important climate data between 2006 and 2009.

The computer coding, along with the programmer's apparently unsuccessful efforts to complete the project, involve data that are the foundation of the study of climate change -- recordings from hundreds of weather stations around the world of temperature and precipitation measurements from 1901 to 2006, sun/cloud computer simulations, and the like.

PRESUMABLY PRECISE

These presumably precise data are the backbone of climate science.

Reading "HARRY_READ_ME.txt" it's clear the CRU's files were a mess. The programmer laments huge gaps in data, bug-filled programs and worries about all the guesswork he's doing. His comments suggest the problems go back years.

The CRU at East Anglia University is considered by many as the world's leading climate research agency. Here's how CBSNews.com's Declan McCullagh describes its enormous impact on policymakers:

"In global warming circles, the CRU wields outsize influence: It claims the world's largest temperature data set, and its work and mathematical models were incorporated into the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's 2007 report. The report ... is what the Environmental Protection Agency acknowledged it 'relies on most heavily' when concluding carbon dioxide emissions endanger public health and should be regulated."

As you read the programmer's comments below, remember, this is only a fraction of what he says.

- "But what are all those monthly files? DON'T KNOW, UNDOCUMENTED. Wherever I look, there are data files, no info about what they are other than their names. And that's useless ..." (Page 17)

- "It's botch after botch after botch." (18)

- "The biggest immediate problem was the loss of an hour's edits to the program, when the network died ... no explanation from anyone, I hope it's not a return to last year's troubles ... This surely is the worst project I've ever attempted. Eeeek." (31)

- "Oh, GOD, if I could start this project again and actually argue the case for junking the inherited program suite." (37)

- "... this should all have been rewritten from scratch a year ago!" (45)

- "Am I the first person to attempt to get the CRU databases in working order?!!" (47)

- "As far as I can see, this renders the (weather) station counts totally meaningless." (57)

- "COBAR AIRPORT AWS (data from an Australian weather station) cannot start in 1962, it didn't open until 1993!" (71)

- "What the hell is supposed to happen here? Oh yeah -- there is no 'supposed,' I can make it up. So I have : - )" (98)

- "You can't imagine what this has cost me -- to actually allow the operator to assign false WMO (World Meteorological Organization) codes!! But what else is there in such situations? Especially when dealing with a 'Master' database of dubious provenance ..." (98)

- "So with a somewhat cynical shrug, I added the nuclear option -- to match every WMO possible, and turn the rest into new stations ... In other words what CRU usually do. It will allow bad databases to pass unnoticed, and good databases to become bad ..." (98-9)

- "OH F--- THIS. It's Sunday evening, I've worked all weekend, and just when I thought it was done, I'm hitting yet another problem that's based on the hopeless state of our databases." (241).

- "This whole project is SUCH A MESS ..." (266)

And based on stuff like this, politicians are going to blow up our economy and lower our standard of living to "fix" the climate?
Are they insane?

LORRIE.GOLDSTEIN@SUNMEDIA.CA
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2009, 08:47:19 PM »
"Hands all over.... Your gona kill your mother"

Ain't the truth Brother?

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2009, 03:30:55 PM »
The European Union sends out a weekly news alert about matters relevant to the environment, including climate change.
You can find their site at

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research_alert_en.htm

News alert is distributed world wide, including to many policy makers in various governments.

Some members of this group may wish to sign up for the news alert so that they can find out the latest scientific thinking.
Searches for back copies of alerts also available.

Geoff

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2009, 05:28:54 PM »
There will never be a resolution to this argument now. Too many influential people on both sides have too much to lose by either admitting they were wrong. Ultimately though , there is too much money at stake on either side. Personally , I believe there is climate change but not disproportionately due to the industrial activity of mankind. There is much data to show that the planet has seen climate fluctuations of this magnitude and much more before the existence of man. Just examine the data for the emissions of a volcanic eruption to see just how small mans contribution is. However , I do believe man should reduce the impact his activities have on the planet , such as trash disposal , tree felling , power generation etc. Purely because the resources these actions impact are ultimately finite and we are (should be) morally obliged to consider the future of man. Problem is , with our prevailing social systems , we can never be certain of the motives of those in power. Money is ALWAYS the motivating factor and oil is the global fiscal standard , so any technology that exists , and I believe the answers to our energy problems already exist , that threatens the viability of the oil economy will be suppressed or withheld until "THEY" are ready to permit it's use. We are all puppets in this game.
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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2009, 02:06:49 AM »
OMG- looks like all the data has been corrupted, and nobody is sure anymore
================

Met Office to re-examine 160 years of climate data
Ben Webster, Environment Editor
December 5, 2009

The Met Office plans to re-examine 160 years of temperature data after admitting that public confidence in the science on man-made global warming has been shattered by leaked e-mails.

The new analysis of the data will take three years, meaning that the Met Office will not be able to state with absolute confidence the extent of the warming trend until the end of 2012.

The Met Office database is one of three main sources of temperature data analysis on which the UN’s main climate change science body relies for its assessment that global warming is a serious danger to the world. This assessment is the basis for next week’s climate change talks in Copenhagen aimed at cutting CO2 emissions.

The Government is attempting to stop the Met Office from carrying out the re-examination, arguing that it would be seized upon by climate change sceptics. [God forbid if we provide facts to people, they might come to a scientific conclusion. Can't have that now can we?]

The Met Office works closely with the University of East Anglia’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU), which is being investigated after e-mails written by its director, Phil Jones, appeared to show an attempt to manipulate temperature data and block alternative scientific views.

The Met Office’s published data showing a warming trend draws heavily on CRU analysis. CRU supplied all the land temperature data to the Met Office, which added this to its own analysis of sea temperature data.

Since the stolen e-mails were published, the chief executive of the Met Office has written to national meteorological offices in 188 countries asking their permission to release the raw data that they collected from their weather stations.

The Met Office is confident that its analysis will eventually be shown to be correct. However, it says it wants to create a new and fully open method of analysing temperature data.

The development will add to fears that influential sceptics in other countries, including the US and Australia, are using the controversy to put pressure on leaders to resist making ambitious deals for cutting CO2.

The UN’s Intergovernmental Panel of Climate Change admitted yesterday that it needed to consider the full implications of the e-mails and whether they cast doubt on any of the evidence for man-made global warming.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/envi...icle6945445.ece
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