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Author Topic: Climate Warming a hoax?  (Read 142163 times)

Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2009, 09:33:29 PM »
Andrew....A very good read about how the earth's climate has changed in the last few million years is Lovelocks, "Gaias Revenge".  He documents the "real reasons" why most life forms on earth really like cooler weather, and why we should be going into a new ice age like some have predicted.  He also shows why man's impact on our atmosphere (and that's what we are really talking about) is preventing that and why our atmosphere is very very near a "run-away feedback" event just like a diesel engine that starts sucking lube oil into the intake manifold, resulting in the ultimate destruction of our way of life.  A similar run away feedback loop happens in electronics when a transistor starts heating up and passes the point of no return.

After all, if you take a standard globe, like the kind sitting on your desk, and cover it with a piece of 20# printer paper, that's a good representation of how thick/thin our atmosphere really is.  It doesn't take much to figure out it's a very easy thing to screw up, especially by a smart animal like humans.

A very good read by a guy who has spent his life studying this stuff, unlike me (I've been too busy raising a family and trying to make a living)  ;)
Stan

t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2009, 09:45:05 PM »
And what does he base his research on?  The failed tree ring predictions?  No one is saying climate does not change, it does, but when you have so called scientists who plot to corrupt the data, who adjust historical data so that it fits their model, how can you believe anything based on flawed research.  I am sure he is a wonderful man, but what does he base his research on, if its tied to any of these Warmers, he is using garbage data.

Dr Susuki and Al Gore are wrong, they have been duped by a group of Zelots
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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2009, 11:13:31 PM »
Actually he goes into a lot of depth on his history, and how he arrives at his conclusions, however he mostly points out a whole raft of different aspects of the subject and lets the reader come to their own conclusions.  He's an old dude and has been around the block many many times.   I'm sure the book is available at the library near you, at least it was at mine.
Stan

Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2009, 03:15:36 AM »
Just read the story on the CBC website...."Hackers skewed climate-change emails: scientists".....It reminds me of the Department of Education here in BC a few years ago.  They took the regulations and changed one word,   " Students that are 2 or more years behind in Math or Reading skills, shall be eligible for student services funding". to " Students that are 2 or more years behind in Math and Reading skills, shall be eligible for student services funding".

Do you see the difference?   When pressed by the TV and Newspaper reporters the governement answered "we haven't cut funding to special needs students at all, it's just there are only 1/3 of the students requiring student services funding than there used to be".  Gross miss statement of the truth by just changing one little word in a huge document, they "saved" over 9 million dollars that year, by preventing 2/3 of the students who needed funding to keep them from failure for the rest of their school lives.

These hackers obviously had the goal of destroying the reputation of these researchers, and by just changing a few little words here and there, and leaving sentences out of the original emails, have again cast doubt (which is the sole goal of the "kept" scientists working for exxon etc.) on the whole subject of global warming. 
Stan

t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2009, 04:42:16 AM »
Interesting that the CBC is saying that, the Washington Times, the RT network, and the BBC have all reported that the College states that the hacked data is real, and accurate.

Would this be the article??

Quote
The hackers reportedly stole more than a decade of correspondence between leading British and U.S. scientists, and posted about 1,000 emails and 3,000 documents on websites.

Skeptics of climate science have seized on the documents — at least some of which have been confirmed as authentic — as evidence that some scientists have overstated the case for global warming and have attempted to manipulate data.

But researchers working with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change have dismissed the posting of documents as an attempt to derail discussions on dealing with global warming in advance of an upcoming global summit in Copenhagen.

Kevin Trenberth, head of the climate analysis section of the U.S. National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., said the hackers were selective in choosing documents they believed could be used to make the scientists look bad.

or this from the guy that was out to break the law and not release data under the Fredom of Information Act, and worked to discrete through blackmail people who viewed his results as questionable?

Quote
In one leaked email, the East Anglia research centre's director Phil Jones wrote that he had just completed a "trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (i.e. from 1981 onwards) and from 1961" in order to "hide the decline," according to a leaked email, which the author confirmed was genuine.

But this has to be the best quote, were we have gone from human kind is killing the world to likely killing the world

Quote
Rajendra Pachauri, the chair of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, told Reuters the communications posted online "in no way damages the credibility" of the panel's working group's 2007 findings that global warming is "very likely" caused by man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

Yeah great investigative reporting about 4 days after the news broke. 
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2009, 04:49:03 AM »
BTW, according to some intelligence reports from agencies with letters and numbers... it appears the Hack was an inside job, a release of information by someone fed up with the lies.... it would appear more information is soon to come.. this will make for an interesting conference...

Follow the money gentlemen... its the 3d wold pushing to get our guilt payments to spend on god knows what, but not the environment.

 Ian Plimer's book: Global Warming: The missing science. It is replete with scientific references disproving AGW
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 04:52:18 AM by t19 »
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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2009, 03:11:22 PM »
Sounds like a good read.  I'll go to the library today and see if it's in. 

I'm interested in what you think (not the Sarah Palins  ;D of the world) that the money for mitigating climate change is going for and who is benefitting from it economically?
Stan

t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2009, 08:13:30 PM »
Maurice Strong, a Canadian who bankrupted Hydro One, and is a big friend of the USSR and China... oh yeah and has lots of friends at the UN... and hates the developed West.  Carbon trade was his brainstorm nearly 20 years ago...

Its all about the money, not the environment

Now, just so I am clear

I have no problem cleaning up our sewer systems, or getting rid of garbage dumps that pollute our drinking water... totally on board with that.  But I could never understand how the billions going to China and the third world was going to clean up Vancouver or Ottawa

Can someone tell me??
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lowspeedlife

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2009, 09:44:01 PM »
Sure Andrew, Your not going to have all that "dirty money" lying around anymore!! ;D ;D ;D


   Scott R.
Scott R.

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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2009, 11:57:22 PM »
I agree with the idea of "follow the money".  I imagine that the groups with the most to lose/gain in this debate can be shown to be the ones who are richest and can afford to buy the most scientists and therefore sling the most BS.  I wonder if anyone can top the billions that Exxonmobile will lose if climate change really does pan out to be the fault of those burning petroleum products.  Now multiply that by;

•   Assam Oil Company Ltd. (ACL), India
•   Arabian Gulf Oil Company (AGOCO), Libya
•   Abu Dhabi National Oil Company (ADNOC), United Arab Emirates
•   AinMine Petroleum
•   Alon USA, United States
•   Amerada Hess Corporation, United States
•   Anadarko Petroleum Corporation, United States
•   Apache Corporation, United States
•   Arbusto Energy, United States
•   Atlantic Petroleum, Faroe Islands
•   BG Group, United Kingdom
•   Bharat Petroleum Corporation Limited, India
•   BHP Billiton, Australia
•   Buzachi Petroleum Operating, Kazakhstan
•   BP, United Kingdom
•   Cairn Energy, United Kingdom
•   Canadian Natural Resources, Canada
•   Chevron Corporation, United States
•   Chem-Energy Corporation,United States
•   Chief Oil and Gas, United States
•   Citgo, Venezuela
•   CNOOC Ltd., China
•   ConocoPhillips, United States
•   Cooper Energy, Australia
•   Cosmo Oil Company, Japan
•   Crown Central Petroleum, United States
•   Cupet, Cuba
•   Devon Energy, United States
•   Ecopetrol, Colombia
•   Edoardo Raffinerie Garrone, Italy
•   Enbridge, Canada
•   EnCana, Canada
•   Energopetrol, Bosnia
•   ENSCO International, United States
•   Eni, Italy
•   ENX, Switzerland
•   ENXRU, Russia
•   Essar oil ltd., India
•   Entreprise Tunisienne d'Activites Petroliere (ETAP), Tunisia
•   Eser Corporation, United States
•   First Texas Energy Corporation, United States
•   Galp Energia, Portugal
•   Petronet LNG Limited, India
•   Gujarat Gas Co. Ltd., India
•   Gujarat State Petroleum Corporation, India
•   Gulf Oil, Luxembourg
•   Greka Energy, United States
•   Grupa LOTOS, Poland
•   HryJax Petroleum
•   Hellenic Petroleum, Greece
•   Hess Corporation, United States
•   Hindustan Petroleum Corporation Ltd, India
•   HH Venture Capital LLC, United States
•   Husky Energy, Canada
•   IB Daiwa, Japan
•   Imperial Oil, Canada
•   INA – Industrija Nafte, Croatia
•   Indian Oil Corporation, India
•   Inpex, Japan
•   Irving Oil, Canada
•   IQ Petroleum, USA
•   Japan Energy, Japan
•   Kaz-Munay Gaz, Kazakhstan
•   Karazhanbas Munay, Kazakhstan
•   Kerr-McGee, United States
•   Koch Industries, United States
•   Kuwait German Petroleum Company, Canada
•   Kuwait Gulf Oil Company, Kuwait
•   Kuwait National Petroleum Company Kuwait.
•   Kuwait Oil Company, Kuwait
•   Kuwait Petroleum Corporation, Kuwait
•   LUKoil, Russia
•   M3nergy Gamma SDN. BHD., Malaysia
•   Marathon Oil Corporation, United States
•   Maurel & Prom, France
•   mari Gas Company Limited, pakistan
•   Maxol Group, Republic of Ireland
•   MedcoEnergi, Indonesia
•   Mol Group, Hungary
•   Naftna Industrija Srbije, Serbia
•   Naftogas of Ukraine, Ukraine
•   National Iranian Oil Company (NIOC), Iran
•   National Oil Corporation, Libya
•   Neste Oil, Finland
•   Nexen, Canada
•   Nippon Oil, Japan
•   NNPC, Nigeria
•   Oil Planet International Corp [www.oilplanetinternationalcorp.com], United States
•   Northern Resources[1], Canada
•   Oil and Gas Development Company Limited[2], Pakistan
•   Occidental Petroleum, United States
•   Oil India Limited, India
•   Oman Oil Company (OOC), Oman
•   OMV, Austria
•   ONGC, India
•   PKN Orlen S.A., Poland
•   PSO, Pakistan
•   Petrσleos de Venezuela, Venezuela
•   Petroleos Mexicanos, Mexico
•   PetroAlam, Egypt
•   Petroleum Development Oman,(PDO)
•   Perenco, France, United Kingdom
•   Petro-Canada, Canada
•   Petrobras, Brazil
•   PetroChina, China
•   PetroKazakhstan, Kazakhstan
•   Petrom, Romania
•   Petron Corporation, Philippines
•   PETRONAS, Malaysia
•   PETROTRIN, Trinidad and Tobago
•   PetroVietnam, Vietnam
•   Pertamina, Indonesia
•   Polish Oil and Gas Company, Poland
•   Plains Exploration & Production Company (PXP), United States
•   PTT Public Company Limited, Thailand
•   Qatar Petroleum, Qatar
•   Reliance Industries Limited, India
•   Repsol YPF, Spain
•   Rompetrol Group N.V., Romania
•   Royal Dutch Shell, Netherlands
•   Sagiz Petroleum, Kazakhstan
•   San-Ai Oil, Japan
•   Santos Limited, Australia
•   Sasol, South Africa
•   Saudi Aramco, Saudi Arabia (the largest in the world)
•   Shell Canada, Canada (subsidiary of Royal Dutch Shell)
•   Shell Oil Company, United States (subsidiary of Royal Dutch Shell)
•   Sinclair Oil, United States
•   Sinopec, China
•   Snpc, Congo-Brazzaville
•   Sonangol, Angola
•   Sonatrach, Algeria
•   Singapore Petroleum Company, Singapore
•   StatoilHydro, Norway
•   State Oil Company of Azerbaijan, SOCAR Azerbaijan
•   Somerset Refinery, United States.
•   State Oil Company of Suriname, Suriname
•   Sunoco, United States
•   Suncor Energy, Canada
•   Surgutneftegaz, Russia
•   Syncrude, Canada
•   Talisman Energy, Canada
•   Tesoro, United States
•   Todd Energy, New Zealand
•   Total, France
•   Tullow Oil, United Kingdom
•   United Refining Company, United States
•   Vaalco Energy Inc., United States
•   Valero Energy Corporation, United States
•   Wintershall, Germany
•   Woodside Petroleum, Australia
•   XTO Energy, United States
•   YPF, Argentina
•   YPFB, Bolivia

Stan


t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2009, 12:40:51 AM »
Thank you for making my point Stan, you must have noted that that entire list was working on "GREEN" solutions, not to mention, like the scientists, were in line to make lots of money in the Cap and Trade business and all the government grants for GREEN research

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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2009, 02:20:16 AM »
Quite the contrary!  It is that whole list that has 99% of its income dependent on the sale of petroleum based products.  If the world's people become convinced they are harming the planet, and therefore their own grandchildren, there will be less petroleum used and therefore less profit earned.  Any monies that these companies put into the so-called green projects is largely government backed and in any event amounts to peanuts in their annual budgets.  Merely a sop to try and garner some public sympathy.

The main point however is, the stock in these largely publically owned companies will fall if the global warming people get their opinion widely held, the same stocks that are held as options by the executives of these companies.  Their net worth will fall by billions (collectively).  In a world where people will kill you for a $150 pair of running shoes, how much nasty business do you think these oil company executives will stoop to in order to protect their own stock options?  Like breaking into email archives of researchers and doctoring the wording before releasing them to the press????
Stan

t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2009, 05:50:19 AM »
Like I said... I'm green... I want Canada to clean up Canada's own little problems.  But this hole Global Warming, climate change is BS.

Of course Climate changes... its tied to the activity or lack there of of the sun.  These so called scientists are a joke.  They produce a computer simulation that cannot repeat its outputs, they doctor historical records to fit their view of the world.

BTW I am not saying that big oil is innocent either, but they are not the root of all the problems.  BTW NASA, not an oil company, has been reporting that for the past 10 years sun spots have decrease... and look... so has the average temp here on Earth... but wait for it... the Average Temp on Mars has been increasing... that must be Martin Big Oil at work :D

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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2009, 06:04:03 AM »
Now, this is peer review done old school

Heh heh heh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VRBWLpYCPY...player_embedded

From the Washington Post today
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...=googlenews_wsj

The climatologists at the center of the leaked email and document scandal have taken the line that it is all much ado about nothing. Yes, the wording of their messages was unfortunate, but they insist this in no way undermines the underlying science. They're ignoring the damage they've done to public confidence in the arbiters of climate science.

"What they've done is search through stolen personal emails—confidential between colleagues who often speak in a language they understand and is often foreign to the outside world," Penn State's Michael Mann told Reuters Wednesday. Mr. Mann added that this has made "something innocent into something nefarious."

Phil Jones, director of the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit, from which the emails were lifted, is singing from the same climate hymnal. "My colleagues and I accept that some of the published emails do not read well. I regret any upset or confusion caused as a result. Some were clearly written in the heat of the moment, others use colloquialisms frequently used between close colleagues," he said this week.

We don't doubt that Mr. Jones would have phrased his emails differently if he expected them to end up in the newspaper. He's right that it doesn't look good that his May 2008 email to Mr. Mann regarding the U.N.'s Fourth Assessment Report said "Mike, Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?" Mr. Mann says he didn't delete any such emails, but the point is that Mr. Jones wanted them hidden.

The furor over these documents is not about tone, colloquialisms or whether climatologists are nice people. The real issue is what the messages say about the way the much-ballyhooed scientific consensus on global warming was arrived at, and how a single view of warming and its causes is being enforced. The impression left by the correspondence among Messrs. Mann and Jones and others is that the climate-tracking game has been rigged from the start.

According to this privileged group, only those whose work has been published in select scientific journals, after having gone through the "peer-review" process, can be relied on to critique the science. And sure enough, any challenges from critics outside this clique are dismissed and disparaged.

This September, Mr. Mann told a New York Times reporter in one of the leaked emails that: "Those such as [Stephen] McIntyre who operate almost entirely outside of this system are not to be trusted." Mr. McIntyre is a retired Canadian businessman who checks the findings of climate scientists and often publishes the mistakes he finds on his Web site, Climateaudit.org. He holds the rare distinction of having forced Mr. Mann to publish a correction to one of his more famous papers.

As anonymous reviewers of choice for certain journals, Mr. Mann & Co. had considerable power to enforce the consensus, but it was not absolute, as they discovered in 2003. Mr. Mann noted in a March 2003 email, after the journal "Climate Research" published a paper not to Mr. Mann's liking, that "This was the danger of always criticising the skeptics for not publishing in the 'peer-reviewed literature'. Obviously, they found a solution to that—take over a journal!"

Mr. Mann went on to suggest that the journal itself be blackballed: "Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal. We would also need to consider what we tell or request of our more reasonable colleagues who currently sit on the editorial board." In other words, keep dissent out of the respected journals. When that fails, redefine what constitutes a respected journal to exclude any that publish inconvenient views.

A more thoughtful response to the emails comes from Mike Hulme, another climate scientist at the University of East Anglia, as reported by a New York Times blogger:

"This event might signal a crack that allows for processes of re-structuring scientific knowledge about climate change. It is possible that some areas of climate science has become sclerotic. It is possible that climate science has become too partisan, too centralized. The tribalism that some of the leaked emails display is something more usually associated with social organization within primitive cultures; it is not attractive when we find it at work inside science."

The response from the defenders of Mr. Mann and his circle has been that even if they did disparage doubters and exclude contrary points of view, theirs is still the best climate science. The proof for this is circular. It's the best, we're told, because it's the most-published and most-cited—in that same peer-reviewed literature. The public has every reason to ask why they felt the need to rig the game if their science is as indisputable as they claim.
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2009, 06:17:51 PM »
This thread needs one of my ambiguous musical interludes that best reflect mood over opinion or fact.
Since I can no longer seperate fact from opinion that all I am left with....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUgC6215Gko&feature=related
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken