Author Topic: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke  (Read 31638 times)

roverjohn

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Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« on: July 22, 2009, 01:14:39 AM »
I got my Yanmar TS50C running tonight. Finally, after having it sit around in my shop for a year or so getting curse words shouted at it. It seems to run pretty smoothly, no crazy noises, and the governor governs. It even shut off when I moved the lever to 'off' which was a relief. Problem is that it spewed a continuous stream of white smoke and the throttle response seemed very sluggish considering there was no load. It seemed to pop back through the intake runner before starting so maybe the intake valve is a little tight and I'm sure it has not been run in years and years so who knows what the remaining fuel looked like in the lines. When I bought the thing the fuel tank had what appeared to be a quart of 20 weight motor in it. I have to think the rings are seated as there was not much blow by when I opened the oil inlet so I'm wondering if I can hurt anything by just running a gallon of fuel through it without load to see if fresh fuel and a little time will clear things up.

This is the motor I bought with the 7.3hp Lister ST gen set which now runs like a champ and has already supplied back up power to my house but I'm feeling like the extra $50 spent for the Yanmar was a good move. I'll try to figure out how to get movies uploaded to youtube so anyone who wants to can see them run.

mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2009, 01:18:40 AM »
if it were me :)

reset the valves, change the oil, fresh fuel
and let her run for an hour or so, even with no load.

then change the oil out again and it should be good to go.

if the little engine is anything like a changfa or visaversa
the intake will make quite a lot of popping noise

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

roverjohn

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2009, 02:02:43 AM »
Already changed the oil. Flushed out the tank but past that I'm sure it has old fuel. Over the weekend I think I'll let it run and hope for the best. It looks just like a little Changfa but it's yellow and red. I need to fab up a better starter crank too but that's pretty easy.

mactoollover2005

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2009, 03:37:44 AM »
if its anything like our military yanmar gennies  you have to watchout for the exhaust. it has a tendency to plug up with sludge oil if even slightly overfilled with oil. looks like a tar substance. a little tear down and a good cleaning all is good again till someone overfills it again,lol.

Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

roverjohn

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2009, 02:38:44 PM »
I ran it for about 30 minutes last night. It has a little oil leak at the valve cover and a coolant leak at a hose so I need to fix those. Other than that it seemed to be getting better with time. It still smokes but not as bad as at first and the governor response got a lot better towards the end of the run. It will govern down to maybe 800-1000rpm and still run very smoothly. I did discover that it will run in the wrong direction if you try starting it with a little less speed than you should which is pretty interesting.

mactoollover2005

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2009, 06:10:24 PM »
well that is a little different,lol. have you checked the exhaust pipe and baffles for any obstruction? excess fuel is black smoke and coolant is usually a sign of burning coolant but not all the time.
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

mactoollover2005

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2009, 08:23:31 PM »
OOPS, burning coolant is usually white ,  messed up my last post,sorry folks.
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2009, 08:36:28 PM »
in a diesel white smoke is unburned fuel

any water that gets into the chamber will cool the compressed air sufficiently so that there
is not ignition taking place,, therefore no steam, just raw fuel and white smoke.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

mactoollover2005

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 08:51:38 PM »
Mobile -Bob
                So if unburnet diesel fuel is white then why do tractor trailer rigs when they accelerate do they produce dark black smoke,, unburnt air??lol,sorry, diesel fuel that is unburnt produces black smoke wether from excessive fuel for the air ratio or not enough air is being supplied, either way its coolant that can produce white smoke. Try makeing a camp fire and pour a little water on it,it will produce steam, well if you add glycol to the water you will get white smoke.

 Sorry Bob,not trying to cut you down but in this case you were ACCIDENTLY MISTAKEN.

Just my 3 cents worth
Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2009, 09:46:29 PM »
Derek:

so to argue the point, but you are the one that is wrong

black smoke from a diesel engine is partially burned fuel or incompletely burned fuel
white smoke is unburned fuel, or fuel that has not been burned hardly at all.
sometimes a bad injector tip will do this, and smoke white smoke.

water in a diesel cylinder is very good at lowering the combustion temps sufficiently and to the
point that ignition can no longer be supported, it takes very little.

the only way you will see water as the culprit in white smoke in a diesel is in multicylinder engine's
where one cylinder has its fire out and is passing water into a hot exhaust then flashing to steam
and making white smoke,

but i think we are talking a yanmar single cylinder? so it is much more likely he has low compression barely enough
to run when cold, maybe an injector that is carboned up at the tip, or not popping off cleanly, so that he has some
atomization that starts the ignition and combustion but also a slobber/squirt that does not burn sufficiently to be a clean burn, but burns enough  to cause black smoke or,  blue smoke if barely burnt, to white if not burnt at all.

you can look it up in about all of the diesel manuals, detroits manuals were good about this,
and i remember explicitely argueing this point with a detroit deisel instructor 30 odd years ago, only to be shot down
and have this explained to me,, it took a couple years of careful observation after that to see that the corporate engineers
were right on this one all along.

water does no burn it just turns to steam and can make white exhaust if there is sufficient heat in the exhaust manifold to flash it
to steam,, but in a single cylinder this cannot happen, we lose the cylinder before enough water gets out to make steam
so there is insufficient heat in the manifold to flash anything.

bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

oliver90owner

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2009, 10:28:32 PM »
white is, as Bob says, unburned fuel.  If it is losing that much water you would soon see exhaust gases bubbling through the cooling system.  A single cylinder engine would likely not run in that condition.  As Bob says, a multicylinder will.

Black smoke is particulates due to fuel not finding enough oxygen to burn completely.  Could be too much fuel or simply not atomised sufficiently.  Just look at the diesel pullers.  Black smoking still does not necessarily mean the pistons will not melt!

Regards, RAB

mactoollover2005

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 06:09:52 PM »
well it has been 20-21 years since i have torn down detroits completely so your explanation on coolant in a one cyl eng makes sence,just not enough heat to produce steam while on multicyl diesels it can depending on how many good cylinders u have. As for the excessive fuel producing black smoke/lack of air for the amount of fuel i witnessed this myself when we had a engine run like a bag of hammers while idling to medium throttle.The engine had a seized injector in the wide open position no matter what the rack indicated,had to remove the exhaust manifold to see the black exhaust pour out of  the cylinder at a idle to confirm our hunch ( the exh man had a crack in it anyways) replaced the inj and it ran pretty good for a detroit,lol.BUT MAN O MAN WAS IT LOUD,lol.Miss them noisy days,lol.


             ""black smoke from a diesel engine is partially burned fuel or incompletely burned fuel
               white smoke is unburned fuel, or fuel that has not been burned hardly at all.
               sometimes a bad injector tip will do this, and smoke white smoke."

maybe its been almost 20 yrs since my last serious job on a diesel and the fact that i have been working on gassers since but isnt partially unburnt fuel or incompletely burnt fuel the same meaning as unburnt fuel, or fuel that has not been burned hardly at all,, the same meaning?  Either way, there is fuel that not completely burned. I can understand  the engine temperature can also play a major role in the combustion and the complete burning of the fuel but if a tip is partially plugged that should produce a lack of fuel state and that cyl wont produce as much HP and torque as the rest,, with no smoke. If the tip has blown off then i can see a black smoke state because of the lack of restriction for the fuel entering the cylinder causing a excessive amount of fuel entering the cylinder for the amount of air being delivered to it. (Detroits atleast) Please explain to me where im wrong in my thinking

  Im not trying to start any arguements or hurt anyones feelings , so if i did then i apologize   but i too have experience with diesels altho ancient exp compared to the newer diesels and the experience of our brother mechs here on this forum.

  I enjoy these discussions because we all learn from them from ancient, experienced and usually cranky mechanics to our new members who have never seen a diesel but are keen to learn ( way to go guys,keep striving to learn). This forum is everyones way to learn from the groups core of knowledge from,,, a members sole knowledge is because he has a diesel generator that has always given him problems and he was the man to figure out the problem and fix it ,,,to a member who has always worked on various diesels with his hands buried in a engine to find the problem that the manual says couldnt happen but it still did. To talk about our knowledge and experiences helps pass this knowledge on and can make someone else,s  life a little easier because  if it solves their particular problem then  it makes this discussion board even more worthwhile to be a member of, and for that im proud to be here because ultimately we all want and need to learn.

Just my 3 cents worth,, ok $1:75 this time.
Derek


Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

Wizard

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 07:22:45 PM »
Gassers, smokes black if too much gasoline but often the catalyst converter hides it but you can smell strong fuel usually.  Low or bad timing can make stuff sooty.

Diesel, smokes black if not enough oxygen (happens under heavy load).

Both engine will smoke white if water is drawn in, gassers smokes blue if oil is getting  into combustion chambers. Diesel engine cheerily burns any escaped oil and get really hairy if leakage is excessive and you have a run-away engine!

Grayish/whitish smoking and smell of fuel of diesel would be lost compression or way out of balance among cylinders (my guess).

I enjoy your stories. :)

Cheers, Wizard

M61hops

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 10:42:05 PM »
Sometimes there's just no substitute for experience  ;) !  This is especially true in the mechanics trade !  It's been my experience that not many mechanics really understand how stuff works!  I'd love to have a guy like Bob for my next door neighbor  ;D !                      .05 worth for today.......   leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2009, 02:19:29 AM »
nothing like the old detroits to teach you the color chart when it comes to smoke

clear exhaust = proper combustion light to moderate loads

gray exhaust = proper combustion moderate to full rated load

black smoke = overload, insufficient turbo boost, leaking intake loosing boost, incomplete combustion

blue smoke = messed up injector tip, dribbling excess fuel, oil running out of ports with airbox covers off
                   causes, sometime loose injector body, bad tip/barrel assy, fuel is barely charred, thickened and
                   remains look like motor oil running out of ports.

white smoke, = over fuel, bad timeing, fuel isn't even charred, partial atomization from some orifices and others just
                     squirting a crude non atomized shot of fuel that cannot be ignited.

the proof comes out when you are working commission for a living, it doesn't take long to learn from those that came before you
what causes the different colors of smoke, and how best to address them. otherwise you just spend a lot of time from a misdiagnosis
that you don't get paid for. ask me how i know?

ok, you asked :)

6v53 compressor engine, complete out of frame overhaul, done to factory standards using all factor new and reman parts
rebuild done, broken in properly and send back to its home location 500 miles away
a week later the engine is blowing heavy blue smoke out of one bank
remove air box covers on bank that is smoking, find copious amounts of motor oil pumping up past the rings on center piston
removed head, pan and cylinder kit, disassembled cyl kit, check for broken oil contro rings, all ok, wrist pin snap plug vacuum check
no problems, reassembled and tested, same issue, tear down again, and reassembled, same issue
but more clean oil being pumped out past the rings while the enigne is running.  finally check visc against motor oil
found to be heavier than the 40weight engine oil??? hmmm how can that be
same color, but visably heavier
sent injector back to detroit for testing, found to have injector body overtorqued and internals damaged, no fuel control
injector pouring fuel early into cylinder and fuel is fired just enough to thicken to the consistancy of ~50 weight motor oil!

that cost me dearly in lost wages all for a piss poor factor reman injector that sold for 35 bucks exchange.

many times over the years we would have engines such as small cam cummins come in smoking white, and huffing
detach exhaust manifold to determine cylinder, and have a face full of white cold smoke, diesel fuel based.
generally the cause was attributed to a burned valve, bad injector or scorched piston/liner causing insufficient compression
to support ignition at all, resulting in white smoke.

now this is not to say we didn't see some engine's come in smoking white like a freight train with leaking intercoolers allowing water
to go through, but when this was the case it was apparent what the issue was, the telltale sweet smell and resultant sweet aftertaste
on your lips from being around it,
but in all cases it was water that made it through a dead cylinder into a very hot exhaust and flashed to steam.

also it is very difficult to get water into a cylinder of a diesel engine, the compression is quite high so to get there it generally will come in through the intake via a bad intercooler core, not generally through a cracked head or leaking gskt.

that is generally speaking

there are exceptions to every rule of course, you learn very early on to look for the most plausible first and work your way through.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info