Author Topic: aa1  (Read 10672 times)

prof.blink

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aa1
« on: July 07, 2009, 12:36:05 AM »
hello all, would a petter aa1 have enough power to run 100 amp leese-neville alt to charge pairs of group 31 batts in the field? also how cold will they start with a rope?  blink

Doug

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Re: aa1
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 12:49:12 AM »
I found about 8 hp gas is best for an alternator starting under load. Diesel has a bit more torque so smaller probably OK.

5Hp gas has a tough time starting under load with a alternator like that. You may want to look at some way shut the field down for startig and warm up. Also do a search Bob posted some info on regulator upgrades bettwe suited to charging batteries.

High loads on alternators will sometimes cause trouble. They realy aren't meant to be used as battery chargers and the field, bridge and regulators on some of the Leace Neveils die an early death when asked to put out high current for long peroids of time
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prof.blink

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Re: aa1
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 02:57:33 AM »
doug, the alt i use has an ext reg wired through a toggle switch. the main outputs cannot be disconnected under load with out popping diodes. this unit has been in use for 25 or so years w/16hp B+S running just off idlle. drive ratio 5-1. i will try 1.5-1. blink

mobile_bob

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Re: aa1
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2009, 03:58:53 AM »
Blink:

i am guessing you have a leece neville 2300-2500jb?
however you mention 100amps, so not sure

and you are intending on charging a 12 volt bank?

anyway my bet is to get into the curve for an output of 100amps
you likely will need to turn 2500rpm or so?

here is what i would recommend

you might think about an upgrade alternator, if so go with a 110-555jho prestolite/leece neville

gear the thing to get solidly into the output curve that will get you your 100amps, and control
the alternator with a balmar mc612 or the xantrex xar12 regulator
both have an amp manager, which makes dialing in for available hp a snap
you can dial in, in 2% steps and work up to whatever load the engine can deliver comfortably.

this one function makes the price of admission worth it in my books, gone are the days of getting the
belt drive ratio all wrong and having to start over with new pulleys, if you are in the ballpark
the controller will optimize for what you have.

also it is a commonly held belief that you need 1hp for each 25amps (12volt nominal), so you shouldn't need more than
4hp, but
that is 4hp at 3600rpm for a gasser, or maybe you can still get 4hp out of a 10hp gas engine at 2500rpm?

diesels like we play with here are a bit more linear it would seem.

fwiw
bob g

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prof.blink

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Re: aa1
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 12:29:46 AM »
mobile bob, are you saying 2500 eng or alt rpm? i will run your prefs past my starter guy to see what he can get a hold of. btw,the aa1 petter is 3.5 hp@3600 and burns the right stuff. blink

Doug

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Re: aa1
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 12:42:00 AM »
That's not much engine.

Might be better ( cheaper too ) to find an old Chrysler fromt he 70s 60 A. Look for an external regualed isolated ground. Thats a very reliable alternator and you can run it witha reostat if your willing to watch the voltage closely or you can adapt a better regualtor from something else.

You can even make one. I made a regualtor years ago for one to do some charging. Not very complicated and adjustable.
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

mobile_bob

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Re: aa1
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 04:03:03 AM »
3.5hp is not much to work with, and in my opinion not near enough to pull 100amps at 12volt nominal

Dougs suggestion about the use of a dodge alternator has some merit, nice open frame for good cooling
about as bullet proof as they come, dirt cheap too.

if you wanna try a 110-555, i would go for 2000rpm alternator speed max
probably get you as much amperage as you are going to get with 3.5 hp

and it should do it virtually forever, i can't imagine a 3.5 hp engine having enough muscle to kill
a 555 alternator, even into nearly a dead short (probably stall the engine before any damage to the alternator)

bob g
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Doug

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Re: aa1
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 05:36:52 AM »
Best auto alternator ever made I think Bob.

Run them a little fast say 2500 rpm to stay cool and they give lots of service. They are big unit for power. the diodes are easy to see and in a pinch you can just change the bridge out to something completely different so long as it fits the frame.

I curesed the 110 amp Leace Neville for years after I reiterd the little Chrysler with the 5 hp engine . That was a perfect match. Switched field for easy starting, reostat and external regulator ( issolated field so I could monkee around with it ) and belt driven so the engine wasn't always screaming.

I amagine the Petter would work well with that combo too.
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

Wizard

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Re: aa1
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 02:28:58 PM »
Nippondenso 120A is found in many chrysler vehicles, Look for these.  Also there are 90A version of these. Just watch for that.  Internal fan is also nice feature.

Second, Chrysler did produce 120A as well but not easy to find.  Usually in decked out chryslers with A/C.

Cheers, Wizard

Doug

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Re: aa1
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 03:58:12 PM »
You can't realisticly drive an alternator that size with 5 hp or less been there done that.

60 amps is plenty belt drive the system and run the motor at a reasonable speed ( and you can varry the speed acording the the charge rte you want to save wear nd tare on parts ) and I strongly recomend the reostat + regulator set up. High charg rates on week batteries are hard on the battery and the charging system so you want to keep the rate relatively low untill the engine is warm and the batteries come up a bit then switch to regualtor. You can also use the reostat to do a recondition charge ( equalize ) something a standard built in regulator will not do.

Simplicity is realy the best option
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

mobile_bob

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Re: aa1
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 01:47:15 AM »
i really don't like small frame alternators for anything other than an occasional charging source,
their efficiency is quite poor

the larger frame alternators are significantly more efficient and can handle higher rates of charge
for longer lengths of time without burnout.

the cs130 will go up in flames if asked to putout max charge rate into a low battery bank
and most will not even warranty a new alternator if the battery isn't charged to nearly full charge
before engine startup.

another plus of the balmar, xantrex etc controllers, they all have optional temp sensors
one for the alternator and one for the battery bank
so that the controller can cut back before either battery or alternator is damaged

60amps is a reasonable and respectable charge rate for a 100-120amp alternator that is driven by a 5-6hp
engine charging low batteries on a regulart and extended run basis in my opinion

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

prof.blink

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Re: aa1
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 10:49:21 PM »
mobile bob, just put the belts on today and leaned against 2 gr.31s that were in good shape and in state of discharge. i lowered the reg adjuster to 14.4v and it just made it. will not be able to pick up 4 gr.31s like in mack or other heavys with out isolating into 2 groups and splitting charge time. just a little bigger would be perfect. bytw, is moble bob mobile alabama or mobile service? blink

mobile_bob

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Re: aa1
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 11:55:42 PM »
mobile_bob is a name i got stuck with in the late 80's when i started the first successful
and profitable dealer owned mobile service for mid and heavy trucks in north america
for navistar.
the boys in the suits in chicago tagged me with that one, and it has stuck

yes i am co-owner of a mid/heavy truck mobile service here in the seattle/tacoma washington area.

too bad i didn't pay more attention in school, maybe i would be known as Dr. Bob or something where
i made a good living without getting filthy/greasy/banged up all the time!

of course the way my luck runs if i would have become a Dr., i would likely be a proctologist at an old folks home.


bob g
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prof.blink

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Re: aa1
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2009, 02:52:09 AM »
M-B, thats a good story. do you remember those start carts that used a c/i kohler w/4 truck generators. that was a pricy affair back in the 70s,all the heavy tow guys had one on the back of the truck. they had big cables on them and had big amp ratings. i dont think there was much interest in charging,just jump starting. blink

mobile_bob

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Re: aa1
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2009, 03:27:41 AM »
oh yes i remember those things

i had a service truck set up in the early 80's where i used 4 grp 24 high capacity batteries
and a 4 post delco series parallel switch, controlled with a cord real and push button switch.

had 50 feet of 2/0 welding cable with tweco connects and vicegrips for clamps

i could pull up to any truck on the road connect, and have them hit the starter
at which time i hit the series parallel and it would shoot about 2000amps at 24volt nominal
to the starter.

that would yank em to life in a hurry, all except the old 1693 cats when it was about -20F
it had enough to light em up, but it would make the cables jump in the snow seeking magnetic north.

i used the smaller grp 24 for fast recovery between jumpstarts

i remember building the thing wondering whether it would pay off
i made a lot of money with that thing for the 3 winters i was in that part of the country.

couldn't use that sort of setup today, computers don't like 24 volt spikes on a 12 volt system :)

the system you are referring too, used an electric start 16hp B&S, and 4 heavy delco generators
that were able to put out about 200amps each long enough to help start a truck.

and yes they were quite expensive iirc

yes those were the good old days, i get cold feet just thinking about all the long hours
thawing trucks, setting fires under fuel tanks to degel them, more fire under the engine's to warm them.

when it gets below zero, it is darned hard to burn down a truck,, even if it is dripping in oil!

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info