Author Topic: GM bankruptcy !!!  (Read 27665 times)

compig

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2009, 03:56:57 PM »
Can't argue with that , I'd do exactly the same.
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Ironworks

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2009, 05:50:57 PM »
I don't have much knowledge on this subject but I do have a question.  How can a company pay 8 billion (yes, that's right) in bonuses in the year 2008 and be bankrupt halfway through the next year?  Now my opinion is, it was poor management.  Why were they paying bonuses like that?  Poor management.   Corporate greed and arrogance.  They thought they were bullet proof when in fact they were as thick skinned as a tomatoe.  Take all the risk you want and be rewarded for it as long as you make it appear to be beneficial or profitable.  Key word is "appear".  Follow advice from Lou Tice (cult like profeteer) "No matter how bad things are just say they are fine until they are in fact fine".  That only works so long and fails to work when things get worse.  Most corporations push his Image 21 program on all their employees.  This is where it gets them.  Confused?

apogee_man

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2009, 05:00:06 AM »
I agree wholeheartedly with Tug.

I purchased a 4x4 extended cab K3500 chevy dually new in 1990.  Paid A LOT of money for it and paid it off over time.

About 1993 the paint started peeling off.  Had a 12 month, 12,000 mile warrantee.  Was quoted $5K for a repaint because it had to go down to bare metal to properly fix it. 

I took it into the dealer and was told that since it was out of warranty and there was nothing they could do about it.  I pushed and pushed and the answer was always the same.  Filed formal complaints, etc.

Circa 1995 or so a buddy of mine in CA who is a BMW master mechanic told me that Ford had just repainted his peeling truck under a special extended warranty program and he'd heard GM was also doing the same because a buddy of his had just had his fixed.

Right back to the dealer I went....  "Oh, we're very sorry, but we did have a program similar to that, but you missed it..."  Why wasn't I notified?  "We don't know, but there is nothing that we can do about it..."  I showed them a different recall postcard that had been sent to me but that also made no difference.

Then circa 1997 or so, GM announces their "Road to Redemption" ad campaign essentially admitting their quality hadn't been up to snuff, and that they were willing to make it right.  So I call the number and filled them in on the peeling paint issue (at this point about 25% of the truck had peeled off).  They had my previous complaints in the computer system.  The person was very nice on the phone and proceeded to tell me that they were not willing to do anything about it.

So, I called back and asked to speak to a manager.  The manager that came on the line was very rude and told me that they were not going to do anything to help me and if I called again they would simply disconnect the call!!!!

At no time was I a jerk or even angry with them.

F*ck GM. 

They should have been allowed to fail and written off as another example of why MBA college grads who have never done anything of substance in their lives should not be allowed to run anything.

I will NEVER EVER buy another gm product, regardless of how attractive it is or how good the price seems to be.

Doug

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2009, 10:43:37 PM »
In China There is a saying " they broke my Iron Rice bowl "

Basicaly its meant to mean the fat inefficient company that payed me well enough and prommised an iron clad future I was not worried about things has layed me off privatized and thrown the worker to the wolves.

In a lot of ways a large unionized company is the same way. We grow comfortable and come to expect that we are somewhat insulated from the rest of the have nots and or CBAs are unbreakable documents that will allow us to work at a comfortable pace and retire with dignity.

GM made some crapy cars so did a lot of people but there are some disturbing undertones in this thread that make me wonder if any of you people realy car about the guy in the Auto buisness who woke up to find his iron rice bowl broken.

You grow into your standard of living and when its taken from you and you find sudently your goiung to be working for 20 dollars and hour with limited benifits its very hard to swallow.
Its infact depressing because you know those hard won battles will have to fought all over again when company turns around if you can ever fight the compnay long enough to get them back at all.

A lot of people complain about our union wages and say we earn/get too much but I wonder how much of that is sour grapes?

What we need to start looking at in the future maybe lower wages limited benifits and pension. Reduced hours should be mandated so at least whjat jobs there are left in manufacturing are spread around more evenly and overtime must be discouraged.

Goverment needs to step up top the plate and fidn ways to help people save for retirment and old age benifits need to be modernized to reflect the lower standard of living the working man will have in the near future and into retirement.

This all goes much deaper than Just GM guys its manufacturing in general
Sour grapes will not help and even if GM starts building the best cars in the world tommorrow too many jobs have been lost to ignore and the loss to the ecconomy from less spendign power from blue collar workers and the retiries that follow can't ignorerd.

Its a hard adjustment to make, its one I am being asked to make and everyone needs to question in the long run who will be left to pay the taxes when the midle class has been pushed bellow the thresh hold of where we can afford to pay to keep our repsective countries running.

GM managemnt corperations in general and all the big bosses, fund managers and bankers out there have little to worry. They don't hold the bag for most of the taxes and are not realy going to be affected much in there gated comunities.

GM will be fine Unlike us.........
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

Wizard

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2009, 12:04:44 AM »
EPA had car makers change paint to with no VOCs and it was learning curve for all,  Ford, GM and Chrysler in that time (around 1988-1992ish.)..

Hence many cars paint peeled.

Cheers, Wizard

apogee_man

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2009, 12:20:31 AM »
Correct Wizard.

And how is that my problem?  Am I supposed to be okay with an extra $5K bill because GM was learning?

If GM was going through a learning curve, they shouldn't have been selling cars coated with that paint process should they?  Instead, I would submit that they should have gotten off their collective duffs several YEARS beforehand and worked the issues out; rather than waiting until they were forced to change because they thought fighting the regulation change was a better tactic.

Doug,

In my view the list is long regarding what needs to be done to turn things around.  Unfortunately, I don't think the politicians nor most of the citizens have the fortitude to do what it takes.


A number of things need to happen to turn things around:

1 - The concept of the top bosses making unlimited salaries needs to end.  NOBODY is worth 25, 50, 100 million a year or more - period!  It's a direct drain on company resources that could be better spent on any number of things in the company.  I don't give a flying rip how much "value" they bring to shareholders.  I don't care if they shit gold, they're not worth that kind of money.  If they think they are, then they need to be shown the door because they've never worked for a living.

2 - The concept of companies growing 20% year over year at any cost also needs to end.  This means the snot nosed wallstreet and banker types need to be shown the door and only invited back once they truly understand the inner workings of the companies that they're providing analysis on.  This means they actually need to go WORK for the companies for awhile so they have accurate insight into the inner workings.

3 - Unlimited corporate profit needs to end.  I have no problem with companies making handsome profits, but I do have MAJOR gripes with a couple of companies that control the entire marketplace holding the public for ransom (think oil companies and financial markets here).

4 - People need to start taking responsibility for their actions and their own well being.  While it's nice to think that the company will exist forever, someone who has worked their whole life should have been planning for their own retirement.  

5 - The concept of management being against the employees also needs to end.  In that process, the human resources industry as a whole needs to be dumped as most are doing nothing but taking up space in the gene pool.  In return, employees need to stop suing for stupid stuff and company execs need to stop being greedy and step up to the plate and take responsibility when necessary.

6 - Individuals and companies need to lose the "i was a retard and burned my crotch by putting a hot cup of coffee there so I'm going to sue" attitude.  The courts need to start running the attorneys that bring this stuff forward out on a rail.  Individuals who promote this type of attitude should be heavily fined to the point where they stop clogging up the system and wasting everyone's time.

7 - People in general need to lose the whole "I'm going to exist on everyone else's tit" mentality.

8 - Start taking 100% responsibility for yourself and respect others and the environment in which you live.  I don't give a flying rip if it costs extra $$$ to do the right thing, DO IT ANYWAY!!!!

9 - All of the tax loopholes for corporations need to be gone.  Also all tax loopholes for overseas companies need to be eliminated.  US companies need to be penalized for moving manufacturing overseas.  Finally, equalization tariffs need to be implimented that equalize the wage differences between countries.  For example, if China decided to artificially hold their currency valuation lower than the dollar, fine because their labor costs are going to be the same across the board.  Only once this happens, will it be economically feasible for companies to pay employees a true living wage that also covers healthcare and retirement.  This gets back to eliminating the expectation of constant growth with is not sustainable (see #2)

10 - Implement a flat tax across the board.  No excuses, no whining, every person and company pays the same.

11 - Eliminate all lobbying and gifts in Washington DC.  Someone gets caught either lobbying or accepting said gift (including campaign $$$) they go to prision.  No if's, and's or but's... lobby or accept and you go to jail.

Please understand, I'm not going off at you Doug.  I just am SO tired of listening to both sides, whether dems or repubs spewing their BS without fully understanding the consequences.

I feel badly for the GM workers who are taking it in the shorts right now and I understand that there are many good folks there also.  I really do feel for them as it's beyond their control.  

However, I took it in the shorts on a $28K truck that was my pride and joy and represented YEARS of descretionary income.  Where is my satisfaction?  Am I supposed to be okay with the fact that I was ripped off?  Especially because someone else feels entitled?  I don't think so.

I have NO remorse that a poorly run company has failed.  And it should have been buried instead of propped up.  Short of the Vette, GM hasn't been making anything that said "wow" for a long, long time.  It's not hard to do, look at the Vette, look at Tesla motors, look at what Dodge has been doing, look at the VW diesels, etc, etc.  Bottom line, management was inept and completely out of touch with the marketplace. Goodby GM so space will be created for a well-run company to fill the void.

This country is SO far off course it's ridiculous.

The capitalism model has failed.  Not, oh it can work if only...  IT HAS FAILED!  Both sides need to get that through their thick heads and understand what it really means.

Turn off that fat POS limbaugh and coulter, choose the media that you listen to, or watch, VERY carefully and work at ferriting out what is really going on.  Not what is being spoon fed by the media.

The two party system is dead and gone.  There is one group of people in shadows running a big puppet show and most of this country is following right along the lines BS that they're spewing.  I'm a dem, I'm a repub; i vote ALONG PARTY LINES.... STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!!!  Bunch of freakin lemmings....

Wake up and smell the coffee because tomorrow we may not have any!

Again this is not directed at you Doug.  

End of rant...

Steve

Stan

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2009, 01:39:28 AM »
Just about every problem named in the recent economic meltdown can only lead any sane person to one inevitable conclusion.  The free market economy (such as it is) does NOT work.

It doesn't work for one very simple reason.  Greed! 

If you take greed out of the equation, it would work perfectly.  The only problem is.......

If you want to know what will work, I'll tell you......first though you will have to pay me $500,000.00 per year, with a $1 million dollar bonus for each year I work.
Stan

Doug

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2009, 02:41:03 AM »
Stan Free markets do work but they need as reasonbale rule book to follow and we have tossed all the rules away and gave everyone a tax holiday in the name of deregulation......

Finaly this discussion is heading towards the root of the matter.


Flat tax apogee_man nope thats madness. We all need to aply a an even and reasonable Goods and serivices tax firts then reduce income taxes to reflect the new reality of taxing consumption. Flat tax may as well be a Pole tax, wana get silly, tax my TV reciever like the old days ( Stan spinning now? ).

Long over due is the productivity dividend cut the work week to 32 hours we all get a cut in take home wages but we all get jobs. Make overtime double time instead of time and a half and see how fast people start to get hired.

Tarrifs not but import taxes on nations that don't start to develop labour polices like our own ( as previoulsy mentioned ).

Health care int he USA needs to be socialized ( sorry but your politicans are on drugs ).

Old age pension needs to reflect the fact a poor pensioner needs to be given enough money to eat was well as a prisoner ( not the case at least hre in Canada )

Drugs dental and eye glass need to be socialized too ( here in Canada ).

Then the playing field will be level.....

IS THIS SOCIALISM ???????

I dunno I am very left in my views but I look at dollars and cents and rationing health care like we do in Canada reduces costs considerably and the level of service on a whole is better. Some will fair better in such a system some ( with a lot more money ) will wait longer. The question is do we want an society of poor people run by a a handfull or rich people who hide there money in tax shelters and over seas or do we want a furture for our kids?
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clytle374

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2009, 03:56:31 AM »
IMO a lot of GM's problems are there own creation but how is bailing out all the banks more useful than GM?  People wanted SUVs and GM made them.  The recent meltdown that has hit everyone was more caused by the banks than everyone else who is being effected, but the banks get bailed out and end up smelling like a rose.

I really believe this all boils down to our money system and how the federal reserve controls the supply.  Being that our money isn't worth anything beyond its reputation, how could this not happen sooner or later?  The history books are full of examples of monetary systems, and often the whole governments controlling them, collapsing.  At least some members of the US government are starting to wake up to this and even the bill(HR1207) has 207 cosponsors, a few more and a vote becomes mandatory.  A year ago I would have never believed that people would actually start considering this. 

The only reason our money(USD) has held up this long is that the USD is global standard thanks to the Bretton Woods system, which worked fine until our money broke ties with gold.

I agree about the unions to a point, and agree that having free trade with basically slave labor is ruining us.  My problems with unions is this.  When I was working as a machinist in KCK, plumbers made over twice what I did.  I'm sorry but there is a difference in skill level and while I might be biased, I think it favors the machinist.   Mentioning only making $20 per hour, a RN with a bachelors degree and several years of experience barely makes that here.   


About free markets not working, I firmly believe they do.  But we don't have a free market, we are playing a game of Monopoly where someone a printing press for money.   They just kept loaning it and loaning it rapidly inflating bubble after bubble.  And now the banks that loaned  $400K on a $100K house are bailed out, GM is bankrupt, people are unemployed with ruined credit, soon people with money will be able to buy houses(with loans of printed money) in lots from the banks and rent them out to a new class of pheasants.   

IMO, it will only continue to get worse.  I see no way out.  The real unemployment is getting close to great depression level already and we're only a year into this thing.   At least I can still buy a gallon of gas for a pre-1963 quarter.  Did I mention inflation?

Stan

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2009, 04:14:11 AM »
First off...GM convinced people to buy suv's and big trucks.  I'm not a cynical man (quit laughing Doug) but I truly believe that the average human in N. America has put their intelligence on the shelf and is coasting along on sheer momentum.  Possibly "reality TV" has done that, but I'm not sure.  It's clear though that most people can be convinced about anything if it's put on TV long enough and with lots of movement and colour.

Second,  people have never been paid according to the service they provide to society.  You are absolutely right about nurses, who very often save lives with their quick thinking and dedication.  What's your life worth?  We have a strike of sorts going on right now by first responders (ambulance drivers).  They still pick up victims, but leave the paperwork to their bosses.  Most of them in BC are working part time, staying at home unless they're needed, being paid a pittance ($10/hr) and making less than $16,000/yr.  And what do they do?  They save lives, daily!  Go figure?

Our premier gave himself a 50% raise and won't pay ambulance attendants a poverty level wage.  I hope some day he needs to be scraped up off the pavement and maybe, (probably not cause he's a right wing sob) he'll come to appreciate the job they do.

Stan

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2009, 05:43:04 AM »
I disagree.
The whole thing goes right to pandering politicians.
They knew full well that their socializing ponzi scheme would run out one day.
One day is here, the people in power know it, but they like being in power, on TV, invited to all the best parties, and are afraid to suggest a solution or be forever banned from the good times.
The mainstream media shouts down any republican that mentions even a semi-solution, and few enough of them ever did. So the only party that can fix it without the media going berzerk is the party that made the lion's share of the promises that can't be kept.
The US debt service (interest) is greater than half of the government expenditure. 42 cents on every dollar spent is borrowed. That's well down the slippery slope. Those numbers are debated in congress every year as they set and apportion the budget. They knew all along what was happening. they Dole out earmarks and remove special interests from the tax rolls based on a lobbying spoils system funneled thru Indian reservations, the only group exempt from campaign finance reform.
As for national health care, Canada can't do it right, and they are an energy exporting nation. The US can't afford it, so it would just be rationing. The elderly will be denied care because their productive days are behind them.
We get a constant barrage about slavery and racism/sexism and class priveledge, what a crock. We live in a 2 class system.  Politicians and worker bees. They went to the same schools. They know each other and look after each other.
Once the politicians have busted the budget, they fall back to self preservation mode, and help their closest buddies. Roosevelt did the same, and ruined agricultural america by declaring a bank holiday, as well as taking over the independant utilities in a goverment take over scheme that seems to be repeating it'self these days. The difference is that politicians didn't raise the national debt to crippling levels before the great depresion stock market crash. This one will be a world changer.
But ask how I really feel  8)
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dieseldave

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2009, 07:25:12 AM »

  Not to get off topic but: Did you know that Chrysler, at the Fenton Missouri Plant builds Minivans with Common Rail Diesel Engines for export to Europe. Another plant, can't remember, builds the Chrysler 300 with a V-6 Common Rail Diesel Engine for export also. :o

  We should HIGHJACK one of those Car Carriers leaving the PLANT! ;D

compig

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2009, 12:17:22 PM »
Very interesting stuff and almost identical to the situation we have in the UK. Currently , our Labour dictators are in a bit of a mess because a whistle blower has revealed they were actually doing what we always suspected they were but never had the evidence.  They are all scamming their expenses to a degree barely credible. This had forced the resignation of many of the Prime Mentalists cabinet and he has had a reshuffle ( I like the gambling analogy there !)  of the cabinet in an attempt to convince us that he's on it  !!  Problem is , there is lots more scandal to be revealed by a media almost beside itself with glee !! Labour is finished and this has been proved by the local council elections and Euro elections. The political situation is now so bad that a party known as the BNP , British National Party, has achieved 2 seats in European Parliament. Lets just say this party has some pretty extreme views on the non white , non indigenous members of the UK population and their participation in the little Euro Political club has really caused panic with prevailing gravy train members !!! GOOD !!
However , the specific rambling of the Euro political scene are probably boring to our US and Canadian cousins  and not really on topic so I will curtail that subject. Just wanted you to know our politicians are just as corrupt as yours.

Couple of observations :-

The most deplorable burden on the Western tax payer ,IMHO ,is Military spending. How much better off would we all be if this tax parasite was reduced to a reasonable level ? 

Health care. We have social health care in the UK and it is in crisis. Sometimes I think the NHS is actually killing more people than it cures !! And is that insidious policy to cull the weak and costly in our society ??!!  Forgive my paranoia , but many of my worst fears of the 'system' have been proven over the years !!  Management in our Hospitals now out number the medical staff and are paid more than them !!  So what is the governments solution to the poor performance of our medical facilities ? More management !!!  How is that even considered credible when the nursing staff are massively overworked and under equipped ??  Trust me , if there was social health care in the US it would be at least as bad as here and probably cost you more !!

Education. Thats where the magic bullet is. We need to be rid of this instant self gratification consumerism virus that has infected our society and the only way that can be achieved is for people to be better educated so that they can realise the latest cell phone , shades , jeans, trainers , SUV etc , etc  , are not the way to a fulfilled and contented soul.

Oh , and eradicate the reality TV scourge , stop making celebs out of everyone from cooks to cleaners !!

Of course non of this will ever happen and the world is condemned to self annihilation within 20 years.
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
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billswan

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2009, 01:28:23 PM »
Compig
you wrote

However , the specific rambling of the Euro political scene are probably boring to our US and Canadian cousins  and not really on topic so I will curtail that subject.

No No I find what you wrote very interesting, as a citizen of the USA I read your post about the conditions in europe with interest. You don't have to worry we are following in your foot steps at warp speed now with OBAMA at the helm. He has a plan in place to lower the wealthy down to the third world at, as I said warp speed. Trouble is no one except conservative talk radio listeners can see it. Seams the TV news are all in the liberals back pocket and most don't listen to talk radio..........

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Stan

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Re: GM bankrupcy !!!
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2009, 03:10:50 PM »
Shipchief....I too find the current thread interesting.  We have a powerful lobby group here in Canada that consists of tv and press moguls.  They shout down anything that remotely smacks of "socialism".

Strictly from a canadian point of view, isn't the massive debt in the US directly a result of the war?  That's what our press is reporting.

Stan