Author Topic: Which to buy?  (Read 7497 times)

t19

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Which to buy?
« on: April 15, 2006, 06:57:56 PM »
Im getting a Roid.  Unfortunately I have been given two options.  With a 10 Kw head, I can get a 1000 rpm 14/1 or a 650 rpm 12/2

I leaning toward the 12/2 as I think the 1000 rpm is less pleasant to the ear

So that does the list think?
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mobile_bob

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2006, 07:05:21 PM »
my vote is for the 12/2 :)
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diesel guy

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2006, 07:08:36 PM »
The 14/1 operating at 850 RPM will produce the about the same HP as the 12/2 at 650 RPM. The single will offer higher fuel efficiency as well. So it would be a choice of 650 RPM or 850 RPM.

Diesel Guy

t19

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2006, 07:10:03 PM »
I was told the 14/1 needs 1000rpm to work the 10Kw head, I don't think there would be any great savings
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diesel guy

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2006, 07:30:09 PM »
That is correct the 14/1 would need 1000 RPM to almost drive the 10 KW head to its potential, but now you might want a 16/2 if this power level is needed  because a 12/2 @ 650 RPM is only capable of producing 7.6 KW and the 14/1 @1000 RPM produces 8.9 KW. Good luck it’s a hard decision.

Diesel Guy

binnie

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2006, 07:55:41 PM »
Diesel Guy,
What is the difference betwee the 16/2 and the 12/2. Isn't it essentially the same machine run at different speeds...or does it need the heavier flywheels? I don't see any diff. in the spects sheets.
Can you elaborate on that one for us. thanks binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

diesel guy

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2006, 08:45:46 PM »
Binnie,

The 12/2 spoke flywheels can’t safely operate at 850 RPM due to excessive rim speed. This is why the 16/2 has smaller diameter to reduce the rim speed and then has increased mass of the flywheels to store the acceptable kinetic energy required for smooth operation per giving torque input . 

The rule of thumb is: The engines output torque can never exceed the stored kinetic energy within the flywheel/flywheels. When this crossover occurs, the engine begins to “lug”.  This is why when lugging begins in a vehicle, pressing down an the accelerator increases the lugging due to the increased input torque and low stored kinetic energy from the low RPM and down shifting crosses back over. Increasing the mechanical leverage so less input torque is needed also increasing the engine speed, placing sufficient kinetic energy within the flywheel to maintain smooth operation.

Diesel Guy
 

binnie

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2006, 08:56:12 PM »
Thanks Diesel Guy,
Now my question is this. If I changed the spoked fly wheels on my 12/2 to the smaller dia., Larger mass, solid wheels whould I have a 16/2 ? Yes or No, or is it more complex than this? binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

diesel guy

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2006, 09:06:30 PM »
To my recollection, yes.
Diesel Guy


binnie

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2006, 09:51:13 PM »
Thanks Diesel Guy,
Nice to know there may be that extra flexability with a 12/2 if you eventually need the extra 2kw and maybe I should install a larger Gen head now to take that into future consideration. Thanks binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

t19

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2006, 10:00:55 PM »
The 14/1 operating at 850 RPM will produce the about the same HP as the 12/2 at 650 RPM. The single will offer higher fuel efficiency as well. So it would be a choice of 650 RPM or 850 RPM.

Diesel Guy
so i could run it slower and have a built in reserve, and get better mileage, and have a simplier system with the 14/1.  And it costs about 1/3 less than the 12/2

This is getting more interresting
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listeroidsusa

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2006, 10:34:56 PM »
The standard 12/2 and 16/2 are identical except for the governor setting and the heavier flywheels on the 16/2. Both engines use the 23 5/8" diameter flywheels, (12/2 with spokes, 16/2 with solid center except for the holes), the smaller 20" flywheels are used on the 10/1 and the 20/2 engines. I personally would use the engine with the heaviest flywheels in order to have more kinetic energy in reserve. I now have all of my flywheels built to be the heaviest possible within reason. I'm also checking on having some of the start-o-matic style flywheels made in India. Unless the 14/1 is well balanced the twins will also run smoother within their rpm range. Any of the engines can be throttled back to 650 rpm but I have noticed that the closer the drive ratio is to unity with the generator the less the flickering problem is. I'm in the process of taking an old 400 hz 60 kw generator and rewinding it for 515 rpm @ 10 kw @ 60 Hz operation, since it is a 14 pole generator. I wound electric motors is a previous job so this isn't hard for me to do. A direct coupled slow-speed generator will be an interesting project.

The 14/1 could also be a good way to go but it will depend upon the brand and the quality of the engine. The 14/1 is a transition model and may or may not be optimal in operation. I've seen both good and bad, primarily with balance problems.

Mike Montieth
Listeroids/USA

diesel guy

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Re: Which to buy?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2006, 01:25:34 AM »
Mike,

We were aware of the similarities between the 12/2 and 16/2 but we were under the impression the 16/2 had 22.5” flywheels. Thanks for the correction, your input on this subject is appreciated.

Diesel Guy